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williewonka

Possible addition to the Buy-Sell Rules

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IMO price control in the buy/sell forum is a very slippery slope, and one that as a BUYER I hope the admin of this forum never choose to go down. I don't need or want protection, from anyone.

The mod team has no interest in price control. It is up to the members what they want to ask, as well as to how much they are willing to pay.

We do however have a strong interest in bashing or trashing someones ad.

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I agree in the buyer beware principal. I know, as a potential buyer, that there's many knowledgeable people here that I could write to ask about a price on something I'm not familiar with, as well as being able to do a good ol' google search. That said, there's been a few occasions where I thought things got a bit inflammatory on the boards and I wished it had been taken to PM for the confrontation... I'm one of those people who just want everyone to get along. LOL Thankfully the norm for this board is that people are very understanding and helpful.

I think a 'rule' about this could be more all encompassing. If someone wants to give me, or anyone else, anything beyond constructive criticism, advice or praise (ok... there's more to it than that but for simplicity sake...), I'd rather it go private message. People also need to be aware that things said on boards can easily be taken differently than they were intended due to no opportunity for reading body language... they need to be careful how they phrase things, as well as how they react to what has been said, if it could potentially be taken more than one way. I'm sure there's times that some of us feel a person is being inflammatory when that is not what they intended.

I don't envy the board moderators on ANY board. I've done it... VERY hard job. I thank you all for the work you do! :)

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If you are a member of this hobbyist community and are trying to sell your fish at three or four times what YOU know is the going market rate (not the price you paid but the current market rate) then you are trying to defraud other members of this community and should be censured.

Falsely representing an item is fraud; asking high prices for an item is not. The "going market rate" is a variable thing and determined by what people are willing to pay for something. Think of the recent housing market- people are readily selling and buying homes for 'exorbitant' prices.

Some people pay tens of thousands of dollars for a koi or an arrowana. Do I think they're crazy? Sure. Do I think they should be prevented from doing so? Absolutely not.

Many people here read the local classified ads and can spot a good deal when they see one. Many of us will pay more for an item that we really want. Let's just assume we're all intelligent enough to spend our money the way we want to.

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The mod team has no interest in price control. It is up to the members what they want to ask, as well as to how much they are willing to pay.

Thank you

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The mod team has no interest in price control. It is up to the members what they want to ask, as well as to how much they are willing to pay.

Thank you

awesome.

its nice to know there is kindness and some freedom.

i appreciate that.

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An additional thought...if a priced object will not sell...any way to ensure it is not bumped daily/frequently by the seller anyway...that is very annoying and might prevent members taking the time to look through many such posts to get to "fair priced" ones.

As to setting the price, by all means only the seller should.

As a newer hobbiest I for one would appreciate pm's to let me know if I am "killing the market" with way too low a price or asking too much... I want always to be fair but don't comparison shop much as many here seem to - I don't know the going rate, can only let others know of this site and what the stores charge for the same set up...not to pick at seller but just to try in a helpful manner to let them know if they want to sell it what the "store rate" is... what they do is up to them.

What ever the choice, so far my experience is that this forum is extremely well run, without the excessive autocratic authority personalities running around you sometime find elsewhere. Keep up the good work - it is appreciated!

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An additional thought...if a priced object will not sell...any way to ensure it is not bumped daily/frequently by the seller anyway...that is very annoying and might prevent members taking the time to look through many such posts to get to "fair priced" ones.

Good point. I have talked to a few individuals about this.

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People could always edit original thread and leave price changes and such in there first post.

Then leave the other post for bumping instead of posting their changes of price or sold items.

That way things are easier to find.

People are going to bump things.

If you post something and things are still available thing get lost and a lot of times people aren't going to search threw pages and pages of stuff for sale, so bumping is needed, but not daily...

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All that being said, if we are a community, are we all to remain silent and let one unsuspecting member of this community purchase items on this site for prices that seem too high? Perhaps all posts in the buy/sell section should have to be reviewed by an admin/moderator before they are published in the forum. This is of course, more work for the admins but it gives them a chance to perform an ethical review as well as a chance to request an edit of location details & price before the posts go public. This woud alleviate issues of public commentary/post-whoring/hijacking. The rest of the buy/sell process could be handled completely through the private message system.
At least the full quote.... and the really important part is the ""HINTS FOR SELLING SOMETHING FASTER""....It's a hint... not a rule.

If it's in the thread titled BUY/SELL rules, is it something you should disregard?

"A thing is worth whatever the buyer will pay for it." --Publilius Syrus: "Sententiae" ca. 50 B.C.

You always have some great insight on these topics RD but I think you have a particular viewpoint as a businessman involved with aquarium products that doesn't allow you to see this objectively. I often repeat that phrase to myself, but I use it as a curse when I see people in this province making fiscal choices that don't benefit the consumers and only serve to enhance profit potential. I also think of this phrase along with the other one.

"The Corporation: An ingenious device for obtaining profit without individual responsibility."

-Ambrose Bierce

Both these ideas are self-serving and archaic and essentially go against the common interests of the community.

Since we're tossing quotes:

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." -Plato

IMO price control in the buy/sell forum is a very slippery slope, and one that as a BUYER I hope the admin of this forum never choose to go down. I don't need or want protection, from anyone.

I'm fairly certain I never suggested price controls. There would need to be indexed lists of current market rates for the admins to consult etc, all of it totally unfeasible. I may have implied something like a price review but my main focus was to allow the admins to review posts for the buy/sell before they are published. As Nick has indicated below, the mod team isn't interested in doing this.

The mod team has no interest in price control. It is up to the members what they want to ask, as well as to how much they are willing to pay.

We do however have a strong interest in bashing or trashing someones ad.

I hear you Nick but you're not giving the buyers any way to protect themselves here. I've noticed BC Aquaria has an extensive buyer rating/ feedback system that is in place to prevent other members from exploiting the group and to also enhance a good sellers reputation. Perhaps this is something we could use.

I looked and wasn't able to find any disclaimers or notices that serve to isolate or protect AlbertaAquatica from liability in the event of a transaction going bad. I highly suggest some sort of statement along those lines get added to the site soon (if it isn't present already).

If you are trying to sell your fish at three or four times what YOU know is the going market rate (not the price you paid but the current market rate) then you are trying to defraud other members of this community.

If you can't identify the ethical issue here then I don't know what to say to you. We're not commercial retailers. We don't have employee wages and business operating expenses to cover. If you bred a fish and are selling the offspring chances are you're looking at a return on your investment if not pure profit. What are you in the hobby for?

Falsely representing an item is fraud; asking high prices for an item is not. The "going market rate" is a variable thing and determined by what people are willing to pay for something. Think of the recent housing market- people are readily selling and buying homes for 'exorbitant' prices.

Is asking for three times what you would pay for something yourself honest? I would call that fraudulent. I don't need a primer on market trends. I'm employed in the housing industry and I know what happened with the market prices. Was there an actual scarcity of homes that caused prices to skyrocket in late 2006 or were many of the homes simply not listed that time of year (which was a common phenomena in the winter). There were other issues contributing to this aswell. Now the market has huge inventory but the prices are still high. We're back to Publilius Syrus here. The homes are not any more valuable (in fact they are farther from the city core) but the prices are still rising. We're stuck with overvalued properties because some fool was willing to pay a higher price and the banks all said you should too.

Some people pay tens of thousands of dollars for a koi or an arrowana. Do I think they're crazy? Sure. Do I think they should be prevented from doing so? Absolutely not.

I am one of those people who would pay hundreds (thousands if I could afford it) for koi. There is an established market value for these fish that is based upon a grading system. Even so, I see many people in this region trying to sell lower quality koi claiming they are of higher grade stock. It is extremely difficult to acquire high grade stock here in Alberta.

Many people here read the local classified ads and can spot a good deal when they see one. Many of us will pay more for an item that we really want. Let's just assume we're all intelligent enough to spend our money the way we want to.

What about the new members to our community? How are they to know what's a fair market price if they've just begun to educate themselves about keeping fish? How are they going to feel if they come in here and some fishkeeping veteran of 20 yrs rips them off because he/she likes money. How is that guy going to feel when this new community that is welcoming him just let one of their members essentially pick his pocket? You know you're asking a fair price if you yourself would be willing to pay it if the roles were reversed. That should be a good enough of a guiding principle.

All things being replied to, this thread was begun with a proposed change to the rules. IF, I'll say it again, IF you're going to make rules that allows sellers to post items without any comment from members, you have to find a way to protect buyers aswell.

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What about the new members to our community? How are they to know what's a fair market price if they've just begun to educate themselves about keeping fish? How are they going to feel if they come in here and some fishkeeping veteran of 20 yrs rips them off because he/she likes money. How is that guy going to feel when this new community that is welcoming him just let one of their members essentially pick his pocket? You know you're asking a fair price if you yourself would be willing to pay it if the roles were reversed. That should be a good enough of a guiding principle.

Do you go out and buy the first used car you see without shopping around for prices?

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No Boo, I'm actually seeing this very subjectively. I simply don't want or need big brother deciding how I should spend my money. I also despise forums that allow heavy handed moderation, which in my opinion is exactly what you are describing. As I said previously, it's a slippery slope ........

While I am indeed now involved in the business side of the aquatic industry, overall this is a very recent event, and most certainly doesn't affect my viewpoint on this subject. This is the same viewpoint that I have maintained for many years, including back when I was a non-paid volunteer moderator for one of the largest fish forums on the net.

Ironically enough, that particular forum (with 40,000+ members) does not actively police their buy/sell ads (or review each ad before it is posted), nor do they have a rating system for sellers or buyers. I think that you said it best in your quote from Plato, bad people often will find a way around the laws, so my question is why penalize all of the honest people due to the actions of only a few that might be dishonest?

While my personal thoughts on this subject may be somewhat self-serving (I prefer to make my own decisions when buying fish & dry goods) the notion that "A thing is worth whatever the buyer will pay for it" is archaic and goes against the common interests of the community is ridiculous. This is in fact the same logic & business principle that THE most successful online business in the modern world originally based their community on - a little buy/sell site that later became known as eBay.

Is this not the same principle that the CAS & ACE auctions are based on? Do you stand up & proclaim fraud at these auctions if/when a price seems unfair (for the buyer) to you?

Think about what you are actually asking for - you want each & every ad to be vetted by an admin/mod to ensure a fair price for those who aren't in the know. What you don't seem to understand, is that unless each & every fish for sale is vetted in person, by someone who is qualified to do so, your suggestion will still leave each & every buyer at risk.

How can an admin of this site guarantee that the fish for sale isn't a hybrid?

How can an admin guarantee that the fish for sale isn't swimming in a tank that is infected

with a disease?

How can an admin guarantee that the fish isn't missing fins, or have some other type of physical trauma?

Does "proven breeder" guarantee that the fish is still in its prime, and will still actively breed?

I could go on & on, but hopefully you get the point. No matter your experience level in this hobby, as a buyer there are always going to be risks. IMHO the admiin of this site have made a wise decision by removing themselves from a situation that is virtually impossible to control.

Hobbyists that are new to the hobby, or even to this forum, have ample resources available (via this forum & elsewhere) to ask questions before they part with their hard earned money. For those that can't be bothered to do so, that's their problem, not yours, not mine, and not this communities.

Edited by RD.

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"A fool and his money soon part." I could care less who said it, but it is true. Trust me I've been burnt twice on this forum. Once by a moderator. Possibly not intentionally. Learn and move on. If you are going to buy fish from somebody I recommend the following:

1)If possible look at the fish in the sellers tank before you buy them. Both times I got burnt someone else picked up the fish for me.

2) If you don't like what you see don't feel obligated to buy. If the merchandise doesn't appear to be as advertised don't buy.

3)If you want the merchandise but don't feel the price is a fair one after seeing it in person-re-negotiate.

4)Do your homework. Make sure you know what you are after. Many African peacocks ,for example, are similar be sure you can identify the one you want as the seller may not always know.

5)If you can't go to see the fish at least try to look at a picture.

If anyone has anything else to add to the list please do and perhaps we could edit and post it in the buy and sell forum to help out perspective buyers.

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At least the full quote.... and the really important part is the ""HINTS FOR SELLING SOMETHING FASTER""....It's a hint... not a rule.

If it's in the thread titled BUY/SELL rules, is it something you should disregard?

I may be wrong, but, I'm pretty sure that your the only one that sees that as something other than a suggestion of a way for a person to sell their product faster. They could just as easily have said (To get rid of your product fastest--give it away).

A lot of other people have already stated things that I was going to bring up. So, I'll go back to my original intent with the posting of this thread. I'm using BooUrns post only as an example plus the fact it was the one that finally got me wanting to break my vow of not getting involved in politics on the site. (I'll get into that later in the post)

To be honest, your agreeing with me in the fact that you suggest the mods should have final control. Point is, there are too many wanna-be-mods on here that are making derogatory remarks in posts when they have no business doing so (and not just in the buy and sell). If you as a member honestly believed that the seller was breaking a site rule, ALL you should have done was press the report button and left it at that. It's not up to you or any other member to decide whether a price asked is FAIR to everyone. I personally thought that it was a more than fair asking price for a breeding pair of fish where the fry are consistently sold on the site. He made comments concerning the amount of fish he was getting per batch and and the possibility of paying for the pair after so many batches. ( No different than any other business being offered for sale. If you purchase an existing business, there is no guarantee that you as an owner will run it as well or make the same profit. Only the potential.) I think most people on here are aware of the possible risks of not getting a breeding pair to breed in your own tank. I would have just told you or anyone else posting a comment like that in one of my posts to stick it where it fit, but he seemed fit to pull his ad. At that point admin should have got involved and NOT just archived the post.

As to the reason I'm a lurker and my post count is low (I'm sure there's a lot more on here for the same reason).

As was suggested earlier in this thread

I think a 'rule' about this could be more all encompassing. If someone wants to give me, or anyone else, anything beyond constructive criticism, advice or praise (ok... there's more to it than that but for simplicity sake...), I'd rather it go private message. People also need to be aware that things said on boards can easily be taken differently than they were intended due to no opportunity for reading body language... they need to be careful how they phrase things, as well as how they react to what has been said, if it could potentially be taken more than one way. I'm sure there's times that some of us feel a person is being inflammatory when that is not what they intended.

There seems to be a group of people or maybe its just mob mentality that seem to be hovering like vultures to attack anyone who makes a suggestion or comment that goes anywhere against the grain. Just ask corrosionjerry, he made a legitimate question concerning the member of the month ( I also had questions in the past when I had to search a members name to see what they had posted in the past month or so, but I sure as heck wasn't going to post and put myself out there to be harassed. I'm really not interested in pissing matches and this is what most of these turn out being.)

I'm really not sure what can be done about this, as, some of the people overreacting aren't just reg members and should know better.

That said... overall this site is run pretty well the majority of the time and I applaud the time and effort they do put into the site. I wouldn't stay if I didn't believe that overall this is a good site. I think there should be room for debate in a topic without it getting to a personal level. And, I apologize Boo if at any point this seemed like it was directed solely at you. I only used that thread as an example of a running problem. This was never meant to be a personal attack on anyone.

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Hopefuly to put everyone at ease here, there has been several valid points brought up. Sometimes a debate like this is healthy for the board. You can look forward to some changes in the buy and sell rules in the near future. Although it might not be everything that everyone wants it will be a huge step into the future of our growing community.

Thanx everyone for your thoughts and ideas.

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I think I'm going to let my input on this thread wane at this point as I think everyone has had a chance to state their point.

In regards to the specific posting you mentioned Fred, I had a conversation via PM with that seller in which we exchanged our viewpoints. It turns out that this seller had some items to offer that I think were indeed fairly priced and I am definately interested in doing business with him in the future.

Regarding the posting Jerry made about MOTM, I did mis-interpret the meaning of his post as it seemed framed to criticize some recent winners of that prize. After I deciphered what meaning Jerry was attempting to convey, I apologized as I realized I was wrong and had reacted somewhat negatively.

I have concerns with hobbyists trying to behave like small business operators in this forum and I've tried to convey my point of view within this thread. Now it is up to the mods to make the choices they deem most beneficial to this site. Mod team, thanks for putting up with us troublemakers! :smokey:

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