Considering Flowerhorns

[TaraBrad]

Hey everyone,

I'm about to acquire a pair of flowerhorns, marketed as "Green Dragons". As I'm fairly new to flowerhorns(I've kept a number of other large SA/CA cichlids, but never these), I am unsure if this is actually a bloodline or if it's just a marketing name. Looks like a Thai Silk with some patterning to me. I'll post some pictures as soon as I can. Anyway, I've got a couple questions:

1) These two are in the 4-5" range, a proven breeding pair. Anyway, I've always tried to offer as much of a mixed diet as I can, so I'd like some recommendations as to some of the best pelleted foods available. Years ago, when I kept Aztecs(Parachromis managuensis), I offered crickets and mealworm beetles, as well as some vegetable/fruit matter, in accordance to what I've read regarding their natural histories and diets. Now, with flowerhorns, having never been a "wild" cichlid per se, I'm not sure what kind of variation is required/expected. Am I overthinking it? Seems to me that having stemmed from Red Devils, Red Terrors, etc., that they would recognize these items as food and take them, but I'm not sure if the norm is just to feed them on a pelleted diet. Any flowerhorn keepers, please share your offered foods and how your fish reacted to them.

2) Breeding. It seems to me that the breeding for these is pretty straightforward, as the male was raising fry when I first spotted him. Aside from separating the female so she doesn't get destroyed, are there any special considerations I should be aware of? Looks like a regular open-spawner to me. Correct me if I'm wrong.

3) Raising fry. To be honest, I've kept Jaguars, Red Devils, Oscars, and Green Terrors(among others, but these seem the most pertinent), and they've all spawned at some point or another, but I've never really given the babies much thought. Few survive through to any significant size as I do very little/nothing to keep them, and those that do go off to my LFS as donations. Anyway, I thought it might be kind of fun to raise some of the fry, should I be given the opportunity. And my girlfriend and daughter would, I'm sure, greatly enjoy seeing babies grow. Could some one give me the Idiot's Guide to Raising Fry? I've got a small 20-gallon running that's currently empty, but established, and I'm willing to turn it into a fry tank(and/or quarantine), but are there any special considerations I should keep in mind?

4) What to do with fry? I'm not trying to make a fortune on flowerhorns. If they successfully breed, and I successfully raise fry, I'm concerned about dropping off a bag-load of juvenile fish to a LFS and have some greedy bastard of a guy try and charge a small fortune for them. It doesn't bother me that they're trying to make money, my concern is them stuffing a ton of flowerhorns into an enclosed space, where they rip one another to ribbons. So far as I know, there aren't a ton of people(relatively speaking) that are willing to run a large tank for one fish, and many people aren't really thrilled about paying a small fortune for flowerhorns, especially when so many other large SA/CA cichlids are almost as nice to look at, for a ridiculous amount less money. The best example I can think of are the Red Devils at Petland on 130th Avenue. There are 25-30 of them, all 3-4 inches, crammed into 20 gallons of water, and they have been there forever, and are beginning to look a little rough as a result. At the same point, I'm hesitant to list them on Kijiji or here to sell them super-cheap for a couple of reasons. For one, I don't want to be under-cutting the flowerhorn breeders out there who are taking serious time and effort to breed their fish, and are keeping pure strains of certain bloodlines, and have every right to charge a pretty penny for them. For two, I personally like paying a little more for my fish, as I feel that with many fishkeepers, when the initial draw to keeping wanes and their fish suffer as a result, the common thought is, "Oh well, luckily I only had $15 worth of fish in there."

However, I would like to breed them, as I find watching the fry-rearing of the parent(s) quite interesting, and in my opinion, having your fish breed is a good indicator of proper husbandry(unhappy fish don't breed, unless they're convicts). Has anyone found the balance of breeding flowerhorns as a casual hobbyist without trying to make a fortunes, and still finding acceptable homes for their spawns?

Any thoughts are appreciated.

Brad

[Bluecan]

I am aware the pair your speaking about, they are decent flowerhorns, espcially for a newbie to FH's you did a good job in avoiding a lot of the low end fish which make up the majority.

As for food, I am a fan of NLS, you will hear varied reviews just like with anything else in terms of what you should feed, but whatever you feed your other large cichlids you mentioned (i.e. red devil)would be fine for these fish as well. As for breeding,that male was with hundreds of fry, you may sell them off to a pet store and what you mentioned (tank cramming) will likely happen, if you dont want this dont breed them, with the alternative being that you are ok with culling the fry yourself and\or using them as feeders. Usually only a couple of fry are picked out to grow out as they mature and show potential, the rest are culled off. Also, that pair definetly has some thai silk in them. If you are ok with the realities of having to deal with hundreds of babies and what may become of them, then go for it, you may have a chance of getting something nice out of that pair, but as im sure you are aware you just never know with hybrids as they can pull genes from so many directions, good luck , and regardless of your plans enjoy your fish and dont overthink it!

Another idea if you are not wanting to do the whole dealing with babies thing, is to give your male his own tank and see how he matures while pumping him up, this is what most people do with FH's.

cheers

[RD.]

I was wondering if you would respond to this, Blake.

I concur with everything that Blake has just stated, especially the diet part. lol

My FH have all been raised on NLS pellets, there is no need for any type of "specialty" FH foods that some FH fanatics believe are required for massive kok growth, etc. Any decent quality pellet food will get the job done. Whatever you decide to feed, be careful with meaty foods, FH can be prone to hexamita/spironucleus if/when their gastrointestinal system becomes stressed. They are omnivores, not carnivores as many FH owners treat them.

As far as breeding, you're going to need a series of 20 gallon tanks, if you plan on doing things right. Genetics being what they are when breeding hybrids you may only get a handful of high quality specimens out of hundreds of fry, which means that you will need to grow them out to a decent size just to see what you have. Not many LFS (if any?) will be interested in buying 1" fry with no confirmation on the quality of the fish. And most hobbyists only want males with big humps (unless they too plan on breeding)so out of hundreds of fry you may only end up with a few fish with great potential, and hundreds of fish with only so-so potential.

As the fry grow & begin to show certain physical characteristics, such as nuchal hump,overall body shape, base color, pearling, fin shape & size, etc you will want to pull the best fish from the comm tank, and grow them out individually. Like what this breeder in Vietnam has set up in the link below.

It takes a lot of tanks, a lot of time, and a lot of experimenting with different breeding stock, which is why you see very few breeders in North America attempting to breed these fish on a commercial basis. So unless you go big, be prepared to sell small unsexed fry on Kijiji for $2-5 a pop.

HTH

Edited January 26, 2011 by RD.

[TaraBrad]

Thanks, guys,

Yeah, I don't think my basement is quite that size... no, unfortunately, I don't have plans for a fish room at all right now. You guys have certainly given me something to think about. I don't intend to try and pawn dozens upon dozens of unsexed, undeveloped fry on Kijiji or Alberta Aquatica, nor do I have the time, money, space, or enough vested interest to invest in large-scale breeding with Flowerhorns. This is just an experiment, to see how things go. I figure we'll give it a go, and I'll treat the fry the way I always have. In the event that I get a couple larger, surviving fry that look nice, I'll throw them in a separate tank and see if I can sell them. But if the whole thing turns into a flop, more of a headache than it's worth, I'm sure I can find a good home for this pair, and I'll move on to some of my old standby favorites.

Regarding feeding, I figured that NLS was about the best I could get. However, for the sake of variety, I like to feed one pellet as a staple, and one or two others, in addition to some live/frozen foods, and some fruit/vegetable/seed/nut, as supplementation. Are there other pellets that you guys would suggest, or suggest to stay away from? From my understanding(and I may be wrong) the nuchal hump growth was dictated primarily by genetics, and that there was no concrete evidence showing a relationship between growth and certain varieties of food.

Good to know that they're quality fish, though. It's certainly more than I've invested in most of my previous fishes, although I have no qualms with paying good money for good fish. My only concern at this time is the condition of the female, who looks like she was savaged pretty bad after breeding. I've got a simple egg-crate divider that I was planning on using, but am I better off quarantining her entirely? In your experiences, will a male attempt to wreck a barrier in order to get at her? In response to the comment about keeping the male singly as a show fish, that was my initial plan, but the tank is in our living room, and the girlfriend originally hated the idea of having only 2 fish in it. To think, I almost ended up with a huge school of cardinal tetras. Kinda makes you feel like a wimp after keeping large cichlids.

Anyway, I'm glad to have a couple Flowerhorn guys that jumped right on my post. I figured that this would be the place to come. Thanks for any and all advice offered. I'll be picking the pair up on Saturday, so I'll see if I can post some pictures, either here or in a new thread.

Regards,

Brad

PS: I checked out an older post, BlueCan, and that Thai Silk pictured in your thread is really cool. Must have taken out a second mortgage or something.

Edited January 27, 2011 by TaraBrad

[RD.]

Brad,

You are correct, the size of the nuchal hump is mostly defined by genetics, while diet, water quality, etc play a smaller role. I'm afraid I'm the wrong person to ask about feeding a variety, IMO NLS contains more variety than what you are going to find feeding 1/2 dozen other brands of pellet foods. All you will really accomplish is diluting the nutrient levels found in NLS. If you are already going to be supplementing with live/frozen, fruit, vegetables etc, I don't see why you would want to feed more than 1 type of pellet, but that's your call.

Without seeing the females condition I'm not sure what the best avenue is to take, but if you plan on using eggcrate you best make sure that it is firmly in place as the male will indeed attempt to get to the female. Once they have grown out more, and if they look like they will play nice, you can cut a small access hole in the eggcrate that is only large enough for the female to come & go, keeping the male on "his" side at all times.

BTW - what size is this tank?

Blake (Bluecan) has a knack for picking quality juvies & growing them out. That Thai Silk was a nice fish, but IMHO the fader that I just bought from him tonight is light years ahead of that fish.

Neil

Edited January 27, 2011 by RD.

[TaraBrad]

Neil,

A little reasoning behind feeding the way I do:

1) I have absolutely no doubt that NLS is, hands down, light years ahead of any other fish food on the market. However, it is one food, manufactured one way, containing the exact same thing in every pellet. Another food(Hikari Bio-Gold, for example) is another, different food(admittedly inferior), made with different ingredients, differently sized, and again, with the exact same thing in every pellet, but different than the NLS. As I've always learned in years of fish-keeping(and reptiles, another pastime of mine), variety is the most important thing that you can offer, in the hopes of maintaining a proper diet.

2) If I had access to enough variety in different live foods and natural options, I wouldn't feed a pellet at all. However, even with 10 different insect species, breeding my own feeder guppies(I don't anymore), and offering a variety of fruits/vegetables/etc., I don't think I come even close to what most fish would consume naturally. I'm also sure that fish food manufacturers have done far more research into cichlid diets than I ever have.

3) So it's understood, I will say that NLS will be the staple, daily-fed food for any of my fish, and has been for 5 years or so. However, on the off chance that Hikari, or Tetra, or HBH, or anyone else is adding anything into their formulas that NLS is not, that is potentially benefitting that fish and not obviously causing harm, I supplement that staple diet with these other prepared foods, just as I do with live/fresh/frozen/FD foods. If, for some reason, these foods are rejected by the fish and untouched, I don't feed them.

In regards to tank size, as both male and female are around the 5 inch mark, they'll be housed in a divided, standard 75-gallon tank, fitered by a Rena XP3. However, as they will outgrow this tank, I've already got some estimates for a custom 150 out there, which I plan on feeding with an FX5 and a 40-gallon sump. I wanted to go the Eheim Pro 3 route, but I don't really feel like taking out a second mortgage. Mainly, I want a custom 150 for the Starphire glass, as I've had tanks made from this, and after going back to regular glass, I can safely say that it's the difference between regular and HD television.

Anyway, I'd appreciate any other remarks/constructive criticisms you have about anything I've written. I've found both you and Blake to be knowledgeable and helpful, both in this particular thread and prowling on a few others.

And post some pictures of your Fader!

Brad

[RD.]

No worries Brad, I understand where you are coming from, it just doesn't make any logical sense (at least to me) to feed foods that don't have any benefit over what I already feed.

In fact, when one closely compares the actual make up of other foods, and the micro & macro nutrient levels (something that I am privy to with regards to NLS that the average consumer is not) then it really makes no sense at all. Variety is only as good as the variety of the raw ingredients being used, and the inclusion rates & nutrient levels of those ingredients.

But as previously mentioned, your fish, your call. This is just my honest opinion, feel free to take it or leave it.

Sounds like you have everything covered well, a 75 will be fine for now, but it's amazing how quickly a FH can put on some serious size. I have some pics of my FH in the link below.

http://albertaaquatica.com/index.php?showtopic=31940

If you have any other questions feel free to ask.

Neil