Jayba Posted January 21, 2013 Report Share Posted January 21, 2013 (edited) Here are a couple of rough pics of my Manacapuru Angelfish in their new home. Thought I'd share a few... Edited January 21, 2013 by Jayba Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan11 Posted January 21, 2013 Report Share Posted January 21, 2013 Great looking fish! How many did you get? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vince0 Posted January 21, 2013 Report Share Posted January 21, 2013 Wow Jay! Those fish look awesome!! Are they wild caughts or tank bred? Thanks for sharing the pics! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomuhs Posted January 21, 2013 Report Share Posted January 21, 2013 Nice catch! Never kept angels but certainly tempted to now. What are you planning to feed them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayba Posted January 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2013 Great looking fish! How many did you get? I got 3 from Harold/Jorg. I was planning on 6 but don't have room for that many at this size. The largest one is probably 8 inches tip to tip. Big buggers. Also I don't want all of them in my posession, because if a tank crashes, I don't want to see all the eggs in one basket. Wow Jay! Those fish look awesome!! Are they wild caughts or tank bred? Thanks for sharing the pics! These are wild caught. Everyone is eating and pellet trained. Weird thing is they don't eat off the bottom of the tank, But they will happily eat anything still on it's way down. They turn their colors and barring off light a switch, real hard to get a good picture and when they are lit up. I will work on that, but for now, I posted these. Nice catch! Never kept angels but certainly tempted to now. What are you planning to feed them? Right now they are eating NLS dosed with Metronidazole & Praziquantel. After the regime is done it will be frozen food as treats and NLS and NLS and bloodworms soaked with Vitachem. I have heard that Vitachem does wonders for finnage. These guys have really thin finnage and is rather brittle. The one Jorg suspected was a female is pretty smashed up, so I will see if there is any truth to the Vita-chem claim Thanks for the comments! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
83BULLDOG Posted January 21, 2013 Report Share Posted January 21, 2013 Beautiful looking fish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RD. Posted January 21, 2013 Report Share Posted January 21, 2013 Jay - the level of vitamins/minerals in Vitachem is but a tiny fraction of what is found in the food that you are already feeding. If you see an improvement, it won't be from using Vitachem. Congrats on your new fish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainbowric Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 It is nice to see some pictures of quality Angels and I believe a person would want to put the best care they could into these.... and Jay your pictures are quite nice for "rough pics" How soon before we see some eggs? As far as the use of Vita-chem....society has been questioning the benefits of vitamin supplementation for people now for decades ... why when everything is in the food? However we are finding out though that the quality of the food we eat is not quite up to what it is suppose to be. In the 10 years or so I spent with the Canadian Kennel Club, top breeders were supplementing there dogs more I think then they were there own children , I knew most of these breeders that showed champions for the title of best in Canada as I sold them vitamins that I brought in from Europe, at Dog shows. I would say that maybe 1 out the 10 used "only" the best dog food! It is a subject "Vitamins for Fish!" that has been beaten to death on the North American and European Rainbowfish forums for some time now, rarely mentioned anymore for sake of argument. Can't say what it will do for Angelfish, but as I see the best Rainbowfish breeders in the world displaying pictures of there fish, two of them has informed me about there strong belief in vitamin supplementation and I see strong healthy finnage in there 3 year old fish .... alot don't even have 3 year old fish or don't dare to show them....it is even more noticeable in the aggressive species of bows ... there fish are amonst the best! As far as one of Vita-Chems suggestions of adding it to the tank, yes indeed I find that a little hard to believe and definitely would not agree with doing that! I let it soak in a mixture of frozen shrimp and bloodworms, a little spiralina powder, and of course a little Garlic juice for a minimum of 2 hours before feeding it to them. As far as being a true believer, after useing it now for close to a year now .... weeelllll .... I still give it to them, and I do recieve compliments for my fish from the boys in Germany and Australia who can't believe the health of ...and quality of finnage on my older ... 2 year old plus, fish! Wishing you continued success with these beauties.... Cheers Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RD. Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 Ric, It seems that you may have misunderstood my previous comment. I am most certainly not one to question the benefits of vitamin supplementation, in fact I have probably been more outspoken on this subject than any other member of this forum since its very inception. What I said was very specific, that being the level of vitamins/minerals found in Vitachem, are but a tiny fraction of what is found in the food that Jay is already feeding. (NLS) That wasn't some kind of random generalization, I know exactly what levels of each vitamin/mineral are found in each product at post production. In the case of NLS, I even know most of the levels that come from the raw ingredients, as well as the levels that are derived from synthetic sources. The key is ensuring bioavailability to the fish, and seeing as this is largely an unknown with most species a smart manufacturer will cover all bases. I have also personally used, and recommended the use of Boyd Vitachem to many others over the years when feeding fresh/frozen as a main staple to predatory species that simply cannot be converted to dry food. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainbowric Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 Fresh/frozen is not a main staple in the diet of my fish ... absolutely not! Maybe a quarter to a third of it. No doubt the nutrients of the fresh/frozen by the time it leaves the manufactuer, to the distributor, to the retailer while being 90% defrosted, :cry: to my fish tank has dropped considerably. Live bb, NLS, freeze dried blackworms ... live if I can be sure they are fresh, and now Northfin fish food, to name the majority of it. Most of the breeders that I have spoke with, including the two that I mentioned in my earlier post that use Vitachem, insist on a wider variety of foods. Now I am speaking specifically on Rainbowfish. I have no doubt that the "raw ingrediants" of NLS are up to standard, however I believe that possibly, the same as with food for people as soon as the processing begins those levels begin to drop with the exposure to air and time. The dog food manufacturers backed by teams of nutritionalist, veternarians,and scientist indicated the same for dog foods. That it had it all! ( No... we are not referring to Science Diet scam ) The thing that we found out is that yes the raw ingrediants were in fact there at time of processing, by the time it reached the dogs stomach those nutrient levels had dropped considerably. In addition, maybe they were close the first few days after opening the bag but after each day opening and being exposed at room temperature there was not much left in it after a couple of weeks. How fast do fatty acids spoil? Maybe you got a jar of NLS that had been sitting in a warehouse for 6 months. This is one of the reasons that no one food is a main staple for my fish, no matter how good it claims to be. However as I indicated in my first post this subject indeed has been debated considerably in many forums around the world. For this thread I believe that Jay is correct in adding the Vitachem to his fish diet. He has a concern with the health of his fish's fins and myself with fish like his I would definitely try it as it won't hurt! I believe that he is doing his best for the health of his fish and should be applauded for doing eveything he can! I doubt that we could get him to separate his fish and give some NLS only and the others a variety of good food with Vitachem . All my fish don't get vitachem ...but the ones that can't be replaced do. Sincerely Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RD. Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 I wasn't looking for a pissing contest Ric, I was simply giving Jay a short heads up, one that would save him some $$, time, and a mess in pre-soaking pellets that simply do not require additional vitamin/mineral supplementation. If done incorrectly, pre-soaking pellets with any type of liquid can actually cause vitamins to leach from the pellets. In that case one isn't gaining anything, they're actually reducing the overall nutrient content of the food itself, before it's even in the fishes gut. I also never said that fresh/frozen was the main staple diet of your fish - but for some people it is, that or their fish have to eat live foods (such as other fish), or die in captivity. Most zoos & public aquariums feed frozen fish as the staple diet to their large predatory species, and then supplement with essential vitamins & minerals. Not everyone keeps fish that can be weaned on to commercial flakes & pellets. My point was simply that I am very well versed in Boyd Vitachem, and have used it, and recommended it for certain fish, fed under certain conditions, for many years. I generally recommend it for two main things, 1) - for ascorbic acid content as the vast majority of fish cannot produce or synthesize their own vitamin C hence it must be supplied via the diet, and 2) - for B1 vitamins, to counter the production of enzymes such as thiaminase, which over time reduces B1 level in various frozen fish. The nutrient profile of the Boyd products is not something new to me. As far nutrient loss in commercial foods - again, that wasn't some kind of random generalization, I know exactly what levels of each vitamin/mineral are found in each product at post production levels. FYI - post production means AFTER the food has been processed, and packaged. This info comes from a non-biased 3rd party accredited institution, with the person overseeing the analysis considered by their peers as being an expert in the field of fish nutrition. That person has been published numerous times, in numerous journals. New Life had no part in this study, and wasn't even aware that an an in-depth analysis had taken place of their food until years later when that data was published in a somewhat rather expensive and obscure book. I have personally spoken to the person that oversaw that study, and analysis. This isn't just something I read on the internet, or that the manufacturer whispered in my ear. To suggest that nutrients oxidise so swiftly that "there might not be much left in it after a couple of weeks" is beyond plain ignorant, it's ludicrous. We're not talking about some low cost farm feed made back in the 1960's, or some mystery dog food that was clearly not developed utilizing today's science, or equipment. How quickly fatty acids spoil depends on a number of factors, including how the food is stored once packaged. A food made 2 provinces over could spoil twice as fast as one made overseas. Depends on a LOT of different variables, but needless to say fatty acids in fish food can remain stable for a VERY long time in an unopened container if stored in a cool, dark environment. Ditto to vitamin content. Do you think that fish food companies don't test their food in house, and know exactly what levels are present at ground zero, and later at 6 months, 12 months, and beyond? Think again. I could let my food sit on a shelf for 6 months, and the micro & macro nutrient profiles would beat most other foods on the market as they came fresh off of the assembly line. Don't believe me, hire a non-biased accredited lab. I'll be more than happy to supply the first food to be tested. What you are suggesting, Ric, is that after someone eats 2 oranges, and takes 1,000 mg of Ester-C, that includes an additional 200 mg of citrus bioflavonoids, that it would be sound science if they topped all that off with 18 mg of ascorbic acid, as if by doing so it would make some sort of significant difference to a fish. Huh? BTW - 18 mg is the actual amount of vitamin C found in 1 ounce of Boyd Vitachem - a liquid vitamin supplement that contains 90.1 % water. No one is saying that you don't raise nice fish, Ric, nor is anyone saying that Jay can't dip his pellets in the tears of angels if that's what he chooses to do, I was simply attempting to point out in my original comment why when feeding the food that Jay is currently feeding his angels, supplementing with Vitachem was not going to net him any additional gains. If anyone feels otherwise, that's certainly their prerogative. Jay - my apologies for the derailment of your thread, that was not my intentions when I made my initial comment. I wish you all the best with your new fish, no matter what you feed them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JORG Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 What temperature are you keeping them in Jay ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t-man Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 (edited) ........ Edited November 23, 2013 by t-man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjerrom Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 Temperature, and water quality, pH, TDS, is more important than vitamix supplements - what are the water parameters of this tank for these Angels. If they eat it they will grow, just feed them a lot of good frozen food, shrimp pellets and vary it with a good dry food. I grow F1 Altums to 6-8" in under 9 months this way from a twoonie size, no medicated food and not one color enhancer. KISS principle works best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted January 23, 2013 Report Share Posted January 23, 2013 Nice Angels! Like always there is some windbag that has to ruin the post. I think this was a uncalled for comment. I found the exchange of opinions very informative it is obvious both Rainbowric and RD are both knowledgeable on the subject and we can learn from their conversation and even form our own opinions so keep it coming guys I enjoy the read its a nice change from some of the fluff, and classified ads for equipment and livestock. FLY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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