Local Vs. Imported

[Bandi]

I am trying to gather data about how, general water, atmospheric pressure and shipping stresses affect the vitality of domestic raised aquarium fish.

So, just want to put this out there. Would you say, in your experience with buying fish, that fish bought born and raised in Alberta water are hardier/healthier compared to fish purchased from the lfs that are imports bred in other countries?

Your comments are greatly appreciated.

[MattsBettas]

VERY anecdotal... But when I breed my own bettas, they live noticeably longer than the fish I get from other breeders, especially when they're imported from SE Asia (which has very different water params, etc than us). Fish from overseas are bred ASAP and then typically only last a few months more if that, and this is pretty standard among betta breeders across North America... Everyone knows they just don't last as long. Even fish I buy from good, reputable breeders in Calgary don't live the same length as ones that are bred in my house, with almost the exact conditions throughout their lives and never any shipping stress. To put a few numbers to it, two girls that I imported from Thailand and I believe one other country in that area of the world got to me in July (would have been 4 months old when sold), were bred, and then died that September. Some of their offspring are still alive and very healthy today, a year and a half later. That's about 6 months for the parents compared to 18 for the offspring that I kept, and those are still doing very well (knock wood).

In my experience Albertan born/raised fish do better in Alberta water.

[Crystal]

By import, are you referring to the LFS bringing in fish from elsewhere in the world, or importing directly from a supplier such as Fairdeal?

I have found that fish bred locally seem to live longer than those shipped long distances to the LFS.

For example, I often breed guppies and other livebearers and regularly add new blood to the breeding pool. The original juveniles from the local fish store saw maybe 6-8 months, yet their offspring in the same tank lived for 2-3 years.

I am not sure which factors affect it, it could be shipping stress, chemicals used to control disease and/or promote color, or water conditions.

Lately I have found a number of livebearer fish I have bought from the LFS to be sterile, or having issues with fertility (notably swordtails, but some guppies too). Yet any offspring they managed to produce had no issues in that department.

Given a choice, I would purchase fish from a local hobbyist. Less chance of disease and the fish are more likely used to the local water conditions.

But I have also imported fish with no issues. I found Fairdeal's fish to be excellent with few or no issues.

[cullymoto]

I think it should be said, usually LFS keep their tanks in appalling conditions. Local bred, or imported wild don't last long in MOST fish stores.

[Bandi]

Hmmm... That will be the topic for another Thread. "How can fish stores improve the way they keep and display their fish?"

[syno321]

. Local bred, or imported wild don't last long in MOST fish stores.

In my extensive experience of selling my CB fish to stores all over Alberta (30+years), local bred do last long in most fish stores.

[RD.]

While I am not nearly as old as syno321, I concur with his comment.

The reality is that the number one trigger of most ailments in fish, is stress, and the transportation of fish can be very stressful on a fish. For wild caught fish, the stress is sometimes more than a fish can take, but even with domesticaly bred fish the netting, bagging, and long distance shipping can prove to be deadly. It is for these reasons that even in the case of non wild domestic strains, locally purchased fish are almost always a safer bet.

The following was recently posted on another forum that I'm a member on, and describes what many WC fish go through, before they end up in our aquariums.

Wild-caught fish are taken from lakes and rivers, transported to holding facilities, held until export, then shipped in bags for anywhere from 24 - 48 hours (sometimes longer). Then they go through a second acclimation at an importer's facility, while potentially coming into contact with pathogens/bacteria/viruses carried by the other hundreds or thousands of fish that have also moved through the facility. They are held for maybe a week or two (if we're lucky -- some people turn around and re-ship them a day or two later), then re-shipped to a customer where the acclimation process starts again. If that customer is a pet store, the fish basically goes through the same exposure and acclimation again. Some fish may be shipped/moved as many as three or four times in as many weeks. That kind of constant stress takes its toll on fish in various ways, but ultimately it wears them down and causes their immune system to falter, leaving them open to disease. It's a lot for fish to handle.

I recently bought 40 wild M. ramirezi and lost six in transit, then another 10 over the course of two days. They came in with some kind of funk which I'm treating with acriflavine. I have seen Uaru fernandezyepezi and Pterophyllum altum come in with velvet. Exporters at the holding facilities in South America will sometimes try a broad-spectrum treatment on the fish before they are shipped out, but you have no way of knowing whether the treatment was completed successfully, or whether the fish were allowed to recover from the stress of said treatment before being packed up and shipped out. The same can be said of the importers who are buying these fish and reselling them to us. Some of them hold fish for a few weeks and treat prophylatically to clean them up, others just receive them and ship them right back out to customers.

There are other things to consider. A lot of South American fish, particularly blackwater fish, come from very pure, clean water. The extremely low pH inhibits the presence of high loads of bacteria. Once you introduce them into an aquarium environment, they're likely being exposed to higher bacterial/viral loads than they experienced in the wild. Combine that with their compromised immune system brought on by stress, and potentially overcrowded tanks with questionable water quality (high ammonia/nitrite/nitrate/DOC), and it can be too much for the fish to deal with.

The best option is always to find F1 fish, or find a seller who has already gone through the process of acclimating and treating the wild stock. This is tricky, because it's not cost effective for importers and sellers to sit on fish for a month while they treat and acclimate them.

[fairdeal]

Jorg and I have brought in a few shipments of wild caught fish over the years and I would have to say that it is a combination of factors that affect the fishes well being. Stress can be helped with such simple things as arranging the environment in such a way that it resembles the conditions that the fish were caught in - sand bottom, rocks, wood etc. More than the shipping stress is the very simple Ph factor. Some fish just cannot adjust to the differences in Ph from where they are captured to the Ph in the tank water where they arrive.That is why most suppliers have their facilities right on the rivers where the fish are captured so the water changes are done directly from the river so the Ph remains constant until the fish are actually shipped out. Large variations in Ph in addition to travelling long distances is just too much for some fish to tolerate. Ph also has a great deal to do with whether fish will actually breed. Some South American plecos for an example will do fine in our Ph but either will not breed or eggs will not hatch if the Ph is not comparable to what it is in the wild while others will breed like rabbits. We try to order fish that have a range of Ph that is easier for them to adjust to when they get here. Fish will and can adjust but not overnight - can take a few weeks before the adjustment is completed. That is one of the reasons that some suppliers try to get the fish out as quickly as possible after arrival before the fish start dying off. If they die in your tank the 1st instinct is that it is something that you did. We keep the fish quarantined for a minimum of 10 days to ensure that the transition to our Ph is alright. It also lets us know if any disease or parasites are going to crop up. Most arrivals have to treated even if they look fine - could take 7 - 10 days for a disease to show up.

We feel that if you are intending to breed the fish it is most important that the fish have a good genetic makeup. Many fish such as electric yellows and electric blues have been around for so long and bred so much that any resemblance to wild caught genes is almost nonexistent. Nothing wrong with F1 or F2 for breeding as many offspring actually display better colors than the original parents.

Wild caughts in a lot of instances will live longer in an aquarium than in the wild if they are given weekly water changes, good quality food, a happy environment, etc. African cichlids for example may survive 2-3 years in the wild but in captivity may live twice as long because they are not genetically inferior to start with. Other species may have relatively short life spans in either situation.

Before my comments end up reading like a book I'll just summarize by saying know about your fish before you purchase, feed and treat them well and whether wild caught or tank bred you can enjoy the results for years to come.

[RD.]

Hey Harold, hope life's been treating you well. Just for the record, the question really didn't have anything to do with WC fish vs domestics, the question asked was;

Would you say, in your experience with buying fish, that fish bought born and raised in Alberta water are hardier/healthier compared to fish purchased from the lfs that are imports bred in other countries?

[Bandi]

Thanks Harold. Never mind about RD http://smurk.me/5lu1 . I enjoy any experience you have to offer. PH can play a factor with domestic bred fish. So if you feel it is important that is good information to get out there.

[hkbialik]

I took Aquatic Ecology in school and remember learning that the fish in cold lakes up north grow bigger, are healthier, and live longer. They also took much, much longer to reach their full size than fish in warmer waters.

I was reading about betta breeders in Thailand today and thought of this topic. The discussion about the bettas was how the imported fish tend to only be ~3 months old and are fully mature, whereas in North America, it usually takes twice that long to reach full size. Breeders are always trying to get their fish to grow faster, of course, because then they can be sold faster.

It was also noted that 2-3 years for a Thai import was a good, long life, whereas locally spawned fish would live 5-6 years on average, and some even living 10 years.

Shipping and acclimation stress are obvious contributors. I've recently imported some bettas. Some seem to be doing fine, whereas a couple of them seemed stressed for the first month they were here no matter how good their water was, although they all finally seemed to acclimate and do well eventually,

[fairdeal]

Hey Harold, hope life's been treating you well. Just for the record, the question really didn't have anything to do with WC fish vs domestics, the question asked was;

Would you say, in your experience with buying fish, that fish bought born and raised in Alberta water are hardier/healthier compared to fish purchased from the lfs that are imports bred in other countries?

Hi Neil:

I'm doing well thanks - just busy all the time it seems. I did get a little carried away I admit but tried to illustrate that W/C or locallly raised fish will both do well if properly cared for. W/C can just be more finicky initially until they get properly acclimated.

Anyways as I get more mature I seem to have more rattling aroung in the old noggin and get distracted easier so yeah skydiving sounds like fun..