Hybrids

[Janoch]

How do you guys feel about keeping hybrids/selling hybrids? I'm curious as to people's experiences whether it be positive or negative. Yay nor nay... Any sought after hybrids or should they be well avoided.

[jvision]

Make sure, make sure, make sure that if you are selling hybrids that you are clear that they're hybrids. There are people who'll charge top dollar calling their hybrid by one of the parent fish's name; that's pretty shameful, IMO. In the African cichlid world, the most commonly available hybrid is the Orange Blotch Peacock, which I've read is a cross between a peacock and an mbuna. However, you can also expect that the "mixed mbuna/Africans" tank at the LFS is most likely a bunch of mutts.

[sm1ke]

Keeping hybrids is, and should be, personal preference. Some hybrids can look really nice, and at the end of the day, if you like the way they look, you should keep them.

With that said, selling hybrids is widely seen as a no no. Most people in the hobby appreciate the pure lines as they occur in nature. Just like jvision said, probably the biggest issue with hybrids being sold is the fact that some sellers don't identify them as hybrids. I personally bought a group of what I thought were Yellow Lab fry a few years ago, only to discover that they were hybrids as they matured. I didn't mind how they looked, but I was annoyed at the fact that I paid the price of a pure line and got a "watered down" line instead.

[Janoch]

Thanks for the opinions guys, I agree selling hybrids as line bred is pretty low. Definitially wouldn't ever do that, I would even be a bit hesitant giving them away to be honest... I'm new with cichlids and would hate to contribute to sullied lines in the local market. There's already enough mixed mbuna tanks going around lol, However i still find myself curious what traits could possibly be bred between different species and if anybody had any positive experiences Raising hybrids. or is it all about faded yellow labs and blotchy runts?

[fairdeal]

In my humble opinion there is a clear distinction between buying fish for breeding and buying for simply pleasure. As mentioned there are some hybrids that do actually appear nice but to breed them and sell the fry without identifying them as hybrids is not only fraudulent but is a major problem in the hobby for the people that take measures to ensure the blood lines are clean.

I'll just relate to the breeding end of things from here. There are several things to look for when buying fish from someone you don't know. 1st thing is to be familiar with body shape and length, fin size and colors, etc. If the fish just doesn't look right then don't buy. Sometimes these variations are subtle and it takes morethan just a passing glance to make absolutely sure you are getting the real thing. Take for example an albino eyebiter - looks like the real deal, has the body shape and fins of an eyebiter but if you look very closely you will notice they don't have the classic "bump" on the chin. I have not seen a true albino eyebiter yet. They have been hybridized.

Ask where the seller got his stock - Asian fish farms are notorious for hybrid fish. Some will go to extremes to come up with the next "new" fish and you may be getting failed experiments for all you know. Why would they cull these fish when they can sell them. Definitely do not buy "assorted cichlids" or unidentified fish. I was in a petstore several years ago and saw "assorted" electric yellow males being cleared out at $40 each and they were 6-7" long and had the body shapes of a football and dark black barring. These were not your typical electric yellows.

If you are breeding fish like peacocks it is absolutely imperative to keep the different species of breeders seperated from each other as it is just not a possibility they will cross breed but a certainty. Since the females all look very similar to a male that is close enough.

Lastly check out the colors relative to the size of the fish. A 2" peacock fully colored up is likely all hormoned up. There are some really outstanding males that may color up at that size but those are exceptions. So if you see a tank with all the males displaying vivid colors at 2" be very suspicious.

[Janoch]

Not going to lie a 7" electric yellow with prodominate black barring sounds pretty cool looking lol, also sounds like it would be one hell of an unsuspecting aggressive "yellow lab" I'm fairly certain you cannot breed out aggressive traits in fish very easily... Otherwise we would all have betta community tanks 😜.

So what do you do with your hybrids fairdeal? Thanks for the tips regarding things to look for when dealing with new breeders btw!

[fairdeal]

As a rule I don't have hybrids but if I suspect they may be I cull them all when they are large enough to identify positively. When you are breeding you will also run into the occasional fry that are deformed in some way - not all peas in a pod. My 30" achara cat, two 14" red pikes and three 18" black arowanas make short work of any culls - quick and painless.

If you are into serious breeding another way to help ensure you have genetically pure lines is to purchase only wild caught, F1, or F2 stock from a known reputable supplier. Here you have to be very cautious as some sellers will advertise these fish as being the ones they are selling but they are only calling them these generations as they know that is what breeders want. What you may end up with is not what you thought you were buying but after a few batches of fry you realize they are not wild caught, etc. Wild caught have a unique look to them and a trained eye can tell if they are truly wild caught but it can be done. Some breeders actually prefer to buy F1 or F2 generation as they are calmer, slightly less expensive and the fry often display better colors as adults - cyps, paracyps, etc.

I had someone come to my house years ago and bought some peacocks and then told me he was on his way to see someone else on the other side of the city to buy a trio of wild caught German reds. I asked him how much the person was selling them for and was told $100 each. I then explained to him that these fish are line bred and that there was no such thing as a wild caught German red. He googled it right in front of me and then thanked me for telling him and saving him $300. He actually thought he was buying extremely rare fish.

Now that the Belo Monte dam is in full operation in Brazil some people are very nervous about whether wild caught fish in the lower regions of the river below the spillways will even be around in a few years or whether they can adapt to the new river levels for breeding. This affects hundreds of pleco species and others and only through hobbyists breeding these fish will we continue to enjoy them. It will be a sad world indeed if no more wild caught L046, L024, L025, L014, etc are available in the future. Even sadder if only a few will be willing to breed them or attempt to breed as some have not ever been bred.

[Janoch]

Yeah, I've heard that a lot of different species of pleco are hard to breed/never been bred or don't have any definitive conditions for spawning. Seems it's even harder to do anything in Brazil without putting an entire species at risk... thats a good example however for breeders such as yourself to maintain solid line bred fish. You never know when they will be lost, So cudos for that as well as your method for your cull... Cycle of life right lol big fish does eat little fish. Otherwise floods/droughts and other more natural Occurrences have led to species breaking apart and either failing to adapt and dying or as a one dr. Ian Malcolm has put it "Life breaks free. Life expands to new territories. Painfully, perhaps even dangerously. But uh... life finds a way." I'm not too certain about these specific breeds but generally pleco can thrive in a varying condition and will learn to accept a lot of different types of food (at least in the aquarium) but likely would not remain as they are over time.

Interesting choice bringing up the German Reds, I thought for sure these guys were the result of a successful hybridization but I guess they are more of a line bred success story. Confused as to how line breeding could result in a different species designation though...

I don't think I have the time or space to REALLY get into any serious breeding. Maybe a bit to help fund the hobby. I just have a 75g recently stocked with mbuna Juvies and had become concerned with ending up with a ton of hybrid fry. (4 different types of metriaclima, yellow tail acei and yellow labs) I went a bit crazy, way too excited and over did it on the species. Will be looking at separating the different species of metriaclima by some means soon. still early to tell if they themselves are hybrids or not... I believe their parents were in mixed tanks. Anyways thx fairdeal

[Nico1986]

Nice fish is a nice fish

As far as selling go's make sure people know what there buying

[MadFishMan]

Hybrids will not ruin pure strains! LOL

How on earth could they?

Do Large Commercial Breeders use hobby aquarist's fish to breed with? So really Hybrids will only affect people buying from small breeders that don't care and breed anything in sight to produce some fry to sell to you. Not that all small breeders do that mind you. The point I am making is that the hybrid fish that ends up in yours or my tank is not a threat to the pure strains found in the Wild unless somehow that hybrid was able to return to the Wild and in a very prolific manner breed in the Wild. Most very high quality fish that people seek out to spend big $ on are so line bred that they essentially are hybrids too, in that they do not occur in the wild. Would you release one of those fish back into the wild? I would not. 

Really unless people are living around these lakes and flushing their hybrids back into the lake i can see no serious issue with home hobbyist's keeping or even making making hybrids. It would take a fair bit of knowledge and tank space to properly produce an attractive and unique hybrid fish that breeds true when bred.

So I'm not really worried unless I'm trying to find pure strain Show males for $2 each out of some guys basement. That's the price I or you pay for cheap fish! That's our fault for buying them lol. Honestly if people simply educated themselves before purchasing fish it would remove a lot of space for the shady guys to operate in the first place.

After all that who doesn't enjoy a nice glowing Dragon Blood peacock or a Turkis peacock or an amazing OB peacock with up to 5 colors in one fish! amazing! Or all the albino types out there? Most albino fish that end up in your LFS are the product of hybridization. Most Hybrids are better looking than the wild caught anyways. Line breeding seems to be the way things are going and for good reason because its good for both pleasing my eyes and preserving pure strains in the wild! Just think all those line bred fish were produced and then used to breed again with out any need for wild fish. Buddy in his living room staring at his tank is happy too because his fish are glowing and look amazing!

In Fact i prefer to see hybridization in the aquarium community for the simple fact that it lessens the need and demand for wild caught fish! Taking wild fish out of the lakes is more of a potential and real problem than any mutt fish in yours or my tank at home swimming back to Africa via the sewer system and then becoming the lake boss... lol

Also anyone who has purposely purchased wild caught fish to breed with is not going to mix with unknown genes when he could produce F1 instead. Again tho... How much does this actually affect the wild stocks in the lakes? Probably Zero

I personally have a few pure strains as well as OB peacocks and Dragon bloods and my most favorite of all is the OB with its wild variety of patterns and colors! In fact i would love to have a large show male tank full of only OB peacocks

Just my thoughts on the subject.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 29, 2018 by MadFishMan