Chelsea

Samuel Taylor Coleridge, The Rime of the Ancient Mariner (NY: Appelton, 1857), 31.

edit: forgot to give credit where credit is due

a scholar.

der apfel fallt nicht weit vom stamm! pass auf, Welt!

a linguist,

The trim is put on, the screws are all sunk;

Put on right, once. Gorilla’s strong gunk.

The Weißen is gone, the day is at hand;

The putty is drying, awaiting the sand.

One thing today, that was not on the list:

Abiding with family; four I had missed.

They stayed the whole aft; our visit was gran’.

My heart is now soothed. I am a rich man.

a dad and a poet too? very sweet poem mr fisher. happy easter.

how is your tank doing now riverpirate?

Nature works by doing frequent water changes.

this occurs through evaporation and land run off when it rains. chaos occurs when this order is either subdued or interupted.

The idea of creating an environment with living creatures that never changes and that is extremely stable is not realistic.

so did you find this printed on a cereal box top or a double-bubble comic maybe?

The best low tech cheap planted tank is setup in a few simple steps:

1. Get some soil from a local creek, river or pond.

2. Pour water in a tank with the soil next to a window exposed to sun light.

3. Put some sturdy plants, if possible from the same creek, river or pond.

4. Add some little sturdy fish (fatheads, endlers, goldfish) and pest snails.

5. An air pump and you are set

Watch your plants and fish grow, reproduce and live happy

seems you rely on what's stable in nature more than you give yourself credit for. i bet you count on the sun rising every morning, and water flowing out of the tap when you turn the tap on.

Nature is Chaotic and changes all the time. The idea of creating an environment with living creatures that never changes and that is extremely stable is not realistic.

how many times do you move your dishes and sliverware? how many times do you paint your house or change cable or internet provider? families, hobbyists, even you can point to stable elements in life that you count on. when those things are interupted you get anxious. once in a while normalcy is interupted. but normalcy is the goal.

nature is quite predictable, as you already dmonstrated. that's what informs us what normal is. predictability is precisely why the ei index/water change regiment works. environments that never change and extremely stable is realistic and desirable.

There is no way for people to control the "everything else". People cannot even control their own bodies, heath, or mind....

In my fish tanks, plants grow, fish are happy but I am very very far from controlling the "everything" that takes place in there.

if it is not possible for people to "control everything else" then barr's no/low w/c method would not work. but it does.

your plants and your fish live because nature is predictable. you don't have to control anything because regular w/c accounts for what you don't control.

your tank will remain stable, until you decide to do something different. that's not called unrealistic, that's called boredom.

My 29 gallon shrimp tank hasnt had a water change in 6 months. I have 3 centimetres of fluval shrimp substrate. Plants are a full carpet of echinodorus tennelus and a pile of shoots of spiral val in the back hiding the hoses and filter pipes. I add a cap of nutrafin plant-gro every second week as well as a DIY CO2 bubbling through a powerhead. Everything is bright green with the odd small brownish tip on the val. Shrimp colony is too large to count.

lighting?

Yah,, I was tagging along; but you lost me.

So - water changes, you for or against them ?

i don't take a partisan position on water change. my intent is to bring the reason why water changes are done to the fore.

regular w/c has always been the fool-proof way to manage the "every thing else" that gets left behind. ei is not concerned with dosing beyond uptake because weekly w/c is part of the regiment. regular w/c doesn't require the hobbyist to do something about the problems you list, so the hobbyist doesn't have to figure them out.

ignorance isn't bliss in tom's non-co2 and light limiting methods. the hobbyist must think about where the "every thing else" comes from and how to control those influences.

Furthermore these "everything elses" are not mysteries, there are natural products/byproducts that occur through logical or physiological functions. Water evaporates - leaves behind its hardness.

I am not a Doctor ( or an arrogant ignorant idiot) but I do enjoy the odd alliteration; and I certainly know what water scale looks like.

the "every thing else" i was referring to is from ei overdose; the logical byproduct of adding what isn't physiologically required by the tank inhabitants.

water hardness is caused by metal bicarbonates, sulphates and chlorides. which of these do you presume are a natural product/byproduct of any other function than fine motor skill?

The first length of conduit I bought, I had cut in half at the store. Then I discovered 5' was 30" too short.

But I formed the fixture stand you see, and a mirror image for stand #2, in the first try.

30" is the height of your cabinet. were you originally thinking about a surface mount?

i looked at two diy conduit light stands. one was mounted to the wall behind the tank. it doesn't use counter space. it wouldn't sway if something bumps the tank stand. but the builder had her tank flat against the wall. the other project was built to straddle the tank stand like a horizontal bar in gymnastics. that puts the conduit in plain view of little eyes and easy grasp of little hands. i wondered how you would deal with the angle and the reach from the back corner. well done! so tell us how many pieces of conduit you wrecked in the process.

leave for a six weeks and look what happens. your handy work is very distinct. but i do not understand how will cars will get to the top level.

I have met some doctors (PhDs) that lack any useful intelligence, and that are nothing but arrogant ignorant idiots. Many PhDs are just unintelligent people able to solve basic problems, memorize text books and get through the crappy educational system of the first world by using their students to do the actual research and write their papers.

Many of the most successful innovators and business men in our world didn't even finish a bachelors degree. You cannot judge the intelligence and creativity of a man based on ridiculous titles invented by our society.

it's obvious that you regret the way you chose your social circle. however, this topic is tom barr's non-co2 method, and his light limiting growth management method. so if you want to vent, start your own topic. i promise i'll listen.

I have been known to go a month or more without waterchanges in planted tanks. There are repercussions.

There is no solution in dilution. With only water evaping out the system, every thing else is left behind.

Over time there are measurable escalations.

• most obviously - tannins. Water clarity decreases
  
• water hardens. 900 ppm is highest I have observed. A 4.5 fold increase from the tap.
  
• Ph rises - relates to the effects of Ph on ammonia toxicity
  

regular w/c has always been the fool-proof way to manage the "every thing else" that gets left behind. ei is not concerned with dosing beyond uptake because weekly w/c is part of the regiment. regular w/c doesn't require the hobbyist to do something about the problems you list, so the hobbyist doesn't have to figure them out.

ignorance isn't bliss in tom's non-co2 and light limiting methods. the hobbyist must think about where the "every thing else" comes from and how to control those influences.

The methods are the same

My point is, you have to understand the limitations of every method and how they apply to you and your goals.

Just thought I'd note, it's Mr. Barr. He's a graduate student.

i'm glad we can agree that methods really are different, that understanding the variables is vital, and that plant selection is a variable. you also did a wonderful job destinguishing between planted tanks. tanks.

tom's thesis is directed towards physical weed control methods of cell destruction in aquatic systems, one in particular. but in some circles, his current level of contribution to aquatic science would garner him a d.d. the difference between mr and dr is purely academic. he will be a doctor in title, but in practice, he's a doctor already.

what you've got will be strong enough for a 25 gallon. But it would be 20x stronger with 2x3's directly in between the two frames so you're not relying on the shear strength of the screws.

a 25 is almost a 1/13 of the shear strength of those screws. and it's apparent this isn't the first stand he's made.

one end of the uprights will touch the floor and the other end of the uprights will touch the cabinet top. spf has no relevant linear compression so the circumferential framing holds no weight. unless he's building with spaghetti, there is no shear.

if i'm reading the dimensions on his plan right (with revisions), the area of the top frame is 351in². a 30gal tank is 400lbs at best. that's 1.14psi on the wood. which is less pressure than you use to squeeze a lemon.

Holiday time, so this project will wait until next week. Thanks for the props and feedback.

enjoy your holiday and thanks for sharing your project!

the last time i bought dry ferts in edmonton was at all season garden centre. i'm sure they'll give you current prices over the phone.

ah, new baby and new babies. a good segue!

I think it's a mistake to divide the forums myself. The methods are the same, only with one the light level should be low enought that co2 is not limiting, and isn't an issue. You increase the lighting and now co2 runs out stunting the plants.

The method has not changed. Only the rate of growth, and as a result, the rate of nutrient uptake has increased. You are essentially keeping everything in balance.

if the methods are the same, then there would be no exceptions, and you identified two; light levels and plant selection.

the science behind each method is the same; the methods vary based on which variable the hobbyist manipulates, knowingly or not.

dr barr is simply restating history to the reader (exactly what quetzalcoatl pointed out); ei/co2 augmentation isn't necessary for healthy plant growth. vary light and plant selection and you must alter the aquarium enviornment accordingly.

light levels moderate co2 demand. growth rate moderates nutrient demand, and nutrient demand (keeping plants fed) is the premise behind ei because there isn't an aquatic plant food guide.

i learned that regular w/c 'was the right thing to do' like changing the cat box, cutting the grass or taking a shower - w/c was also necessary to reduce the symptoms of overfeeding fish. dr barr explains that water changes in the ei regiment are a symptom of intentionally overfeeding plants.

he also indicates that water changes (the subject of this thread) is not necessary to be a good hobbyist. it actually takes good husbandry to get to that point.

I'll say my opinion again about this method being the smart way and see if this post gets flamed as did the 1st. lol

doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results?

I had said in the past this method is the 'smart' way to keep a planted tank

i posted two methods. which one you are referring to?

if anyone is looking for potassium permanganate in the edmonton area, you can find it at g e pharmacy, $7/500g. all seasons garden centre referred me. i suspect other edmonton pharmacies carry the chemical too. it's not so tough to get.

you might be asked what you plan to use it for, and you might have to show photo id which might be recorded to monitor your purchase history. these steps might sound useless because people lie. but companies who want to avoid strict liability for selling the chemical will ask (g/e pharmacy asked; the small town pharmacy where i bought it previously didn't).

i know there are some negative purchase experiences out there, but those stories aren't normative. i went to g/e, gave them what they wanted, and they responded in kind. pretty simple.

you can find msds online if you are interested.

the non-co2 method lead me to this article: http://www.barrrepor...nagement-method

which really brought me to the crux of the matter.

I use this method.

Patience is the key. I have mostly fairly easy plants with a few trickier ones. Glosso and hair grass doesn't spread very fast but its healthy.

Plants include: Crypt parva, crypt wendetti, hygro, anubias, glosso, christmass moss, flame moss, hair grass, dwarf hair grass, and rotala wallichii.

its hard to believe but there is around 20 fish and 60 shrimp in there.

impressive! that's what new hobbyists need to see. so tell me it's stock 30w t8.

It's a good approach until you hear a newb say, "My plants aren't growing, I think I need more light." Then a week later they come on the forum and say,"My planted tank has algae, what do I do? I'm sure I have enough light."

That is why the typical response is, "Add CO2 or reduce your light."

The newb thinks, "My plants don't grow with less light, so I guess you need CO2 to grow plants."

Most newbs aren't patient enough for the approach mentioned in the OP.

that means the new hobbyist is thinking. and most (a quantity based on nothing emprical) doesn't mean all.

people know it takes light to grow plants. how do new hobbyists know anything about t5ho or co2? they walk into a lfs or look online.

• advertisements promote co2 to make your plants and, therefore, your tank healthier.
  
• high intensity lighting makes your tank brighter
  
• forums are peppered with hobbyists who ascribe to both
  

so coming to a forum asking "how do i...?" is an informed step that forums should welcome. after all, hobbyists encourage hobbyists to a higher level of hobbicity.

but when a new hobbist says, "My plants aren't growing, I think I need more light," how many not-so-new hobbyists are willing to say, "be patient. aquatic plants take time to grow" over against "add light and co2"? when that happens, the solution can be just as nebulous as the problem. add to that being called a newb and the whole experience can be disheartening. and isn't that not the point?

so far, i see planted tank as a single category in forums i've surveyed over the years. i wonder if subdividing the category would help people tailor their advice toward low and high tech tanks, and demonstrate, as dr barr indicates, that both schools of thought are viable and rewarding.

how are they doing Jayba?

did you really pack that tank by hand?

the non-co2 method lead me to this article: http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/6972-The-light-limiting-growth-management-method

which really brought me to the crux of the matter.

do you know anybody who says they don't do water changes, yet their flora and fauna are healthy?

this article http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/2817-Non-CO2-methods gave me plenty to think about not only because the method excludes injected CO2, but because the method claims no water changes.

i spoke wth plenty of hobbyists that were quick to comdemn the method without considering the approach or the author's reputation. a few didn't want to try it because they didn't know anyone who used the method, or they didn't want to get ridiculed for doing something less than mainstream. a handful didn't want to try it because success meant their CO2 investment wasn't the only way to go.

everyone said their plants look nicer since they added CO2. but nobody, nobody said they preferred CO2 because their plants would grow faster. so their real goal is nice looking plants.

here's a couple quotes from the article:

• "CO2 is a bit like a drug addiction that hobbyists get hooked on. [...] CO2 and non CO2 tanks work for all the same reasons, but........ They grow at different rates"
  

plants grow fast with CO2. so they fill the tank faster, we trim them more often, and eventually pull them to get something different more often. add the time and money it costs to setup and maintain and it sounds like CO2, arguable, increases maintenance (but the benefit was not raised by any hobbyist i polled).

• "...assuming 80-90% of the nutrients will come from the fish load."
  

i just about choked on my coffee when i read this one. sounds low maintenance. natural ingredients.

Step One: Feed Fish

Step Two: Repeat Step One

As for no water changes, well, like some of you, i come from a long standing tradition of regular wc. but when someone with dr barr's credentials suggests open-loop fertilization can be simplified to a near closed loop, that's noteworthy. it may not sell as many ro or t5ho, but it does give low-tech hobbyists hope. and as i've read here, in other forums and listened to over a cup of coffee, many hobbyists say they value simplicity.

EI Light For Those Less Techy Folks is a good read too:

http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/2819-EI-light-for-those-less-techy-folks

i was amazed the first time i saw a planted tank.

when i asked the owner how i could do that, i was overwhelmed with the vocabulary, and quickly checked out of the conversation. but i did manage to retain the name, "tom barr," and my personal search began.

the title of this topic is not my own. it's a reiteration of mr barr's thread title.

http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/4882-Confusion-about-EI-and-other-myths

i do commend this to those who are curious, but discouraged trying to reconcile the scads of positive/negative anecdotes on the subject.

it's not like reading a primer on spelling. but tom uses a consistant vocabulary which made it easy for me to learn.

i found it helpful, and it lead to reading several other posts of his. i hope you find it helpful too.

congratulations! a new baby and a new home is great news!

a 3 minute walk sounds like you're not loading it in a vehicle. a 36 with substrate and rock can be quite a load to carry 3 for minutes. how many times will you shift the weight or rest along the way? (rhetorical question). you are obviously concerned. maybe it would be worth the work to take the rock out, if not to lighten your load, then for piece of mind.

and after dealing with inconsiderate neighbors, maybe you could use a healthy dose of piece of mind.

good luck in your move!