dunl

I usually just fast the fish for a few days before switching them over.

In that case, welcome for the first time....glad you found us.

lots of beer?

If you insist, I'm thinking many people might not mind you doing that. :smokey:

Welcome Michelle....were you on here previously under a different name?

Kill the lights for a day or two. That should do it.

Excellent, all good to know. They're something I hadn't seen since last time I was around, so I thought I'd drop a line in here and figured someone would be in the know about them.

Thanks for sharing that.

And I'm not an angelfish fan, but I thought I'd throw this up here for discussion:

http://reddeer.kijiji.ca/c-pets-other-Rare-Philipine-Blue-Angelfish-W0QQAdIdZ249046018

Anyone seen these before?

Thanks for looking that up. There's some excellent material in there. It would be nice to see something regarding the fat content and its effect on liver function and liver health, but this is great. Maybe over the holidays I will see what I can search out.

Check into a ionic filter maybe?

RO water is used all the time in saltwater aquariums. Have you thought of taking your water to the local water plant and having it tested?

You could have just posted the above info when asked. After all, it IS helpful information.....I have no idea why you wouldn't share it.

No, I am saying it can be reversed in humans. This then poses the question, "Does mamallion meat leave an irreversable fatty liver build up because it cannot be assimilated properly or will it heal itself when the fatty foods are taken away?"

IF it does heal itself then you could feed it to younger fish to get them to grow quicker as Hustler suggested. I think you would have to get a group of test subjects and feed them the beefheart a certain amount of time and then cut them off and examine one specimen per month until either: A) all of the fish are dead or you no longer see evidence of the disease. You would also need another group of test subjects fed no beefheart to see which group of test subjects live longer.

I am certainly not going to be subjecting my fish to that. If anyone wants to give it a whirl go ahead. Based on existing evidence, I will not include beef heart in the diet of any of my fish. I am not a scientist but I would say any stress to the organs for any amount of time would likely cause shorter life. Kind of like smoking. I smoked for 20 years but now that I've quit I don't expect to live as long as I would if I hadn't taken up the habit. :bang1:

I suppose that would depend on the regenerative abilities of the affected areas. There are rare cases of humans having heart defects or other organs, that somehow repair themselves over the years.

Gold's dude.

Gold's is good, but unless things have changed, you better be there early.

3. I am dyslexic. I thought your post said discus not discuss. LOL. :drunk:

LMAO. -roll-

I also read that fatty liver disease can be reversed in humans if the diet is changed. Can it be reversed in fish? If so it could be used when fish are young but prolonged use would likely be fatal.

Just not quite sure what you mean Ryan by the last sentence....correct me if I am wrong, but you are saying that liver disease can be reversed in fish if caught early enough....right?

Dr. Peter Burgess MSc, Ph.D.,of the Aquarium Advisory Service in England, is not only an experienced aquarium hobbyist, but also a scientist that specializes in the health & disease in fish. He has written over 300 articles and five books on fish health and is a visiting lecturer in Aquarium Sciences and Conservation at Plymouth University, where he works with the University of Plymouth training students in scientific research. Among his other positions, Dr. Burgess is a senior consultant to the Mars FishCare business and regularly runs fish health & husbandry courses for aquarists, fish scientists and vets. He's also a regular contributor & Fish Health consultant for the Practical Fishkeeping Magazine, as well as other magazines devoted to the fish keeping hobby.

Below is an excerpt from the Practical Fishkeeping Magazine titled;

Liver Damage and Red Meats,

"The routine of feeding beef heart and other red meats to Cichlids can ultimately give rise to health problems. Poultry meat is also suspect. Red meats, including lean meats such as beef heart, contain the wrong sorts of fats - these harden within the cold-blooded fish, leading to blockages and fatty deposits around the liver.

Also, the relative proportions of amino acids within the mammalian proteins are different to those required by fish. Hence, feeding red meats will cause the cichlid to excrete more nitrogenous (ammonia) wastes, thereby placing an extra burden on the biological filter.

Below is a direct quote from Lee Newman.

"I suggest, however, that you avoid those that incorporate beef heart. Beef heart is a fatty meat that will ultimately lead to the fatty degeneration of the liver in long-lived cichlids."

I'm sure that if I had the time, and really wanted to, I could find scores of qualified proffesionals that work within the aquaculture industry, including many scientists that specialize in the field of fish health, that would also state the exact same thing as the two gentleman above.

Most of the research done in the area of fish health over the past 50 years can't be found on Wikipedia, so it's not very realistic to expect myself, or anyone to else "direct us to some scientific studies", and if we can't (or in my case, at this point of the discussion can't be bothered looking), then those comments are automatically considered "misleading". Futhermore, most studies that can be found online, where you don't have to pay a large fee just to read them, are based on commercial fish, as in those raised for human consumption. Those studies don't involve "years" (usually a few weeks at best), nor are they typically designed with the fishes longevity in mind.

Feed trials or studies involving species such as Pangasius sanitwongsei would be non existent, as it would be for most species of catfish from that part of the world.

THANK YOU. That's all I was looking for, some further research.

My comment in this discussion was to provide what I personally felt was some sound advice regarding the feeding of catfish in captivity.

Perhaps in the future instead of nit picking what others have to say when attempting to help fellow members of this site, you can offer something constructive to the conversation. I honestly don't need to prove anything to you, and certainly not on the subject of fish health, or nutrition.

Have a nice day.

And all I was asking for was some further proof of what you had suggested. An innocent inquiry that you blew out of proportion.

Did I suggest I would be RD's little research assistant? No, I suggested I would be yours if anything in the spread of knowledge to help the pursuit of your interest, but thank for coming out. And as far as stating something as fact he does state that he himself stands out against it, which would imply opinion anyways, so I am lost as to what you are trying to prove if he's already stated its an opinion. He also quoted Lee Newman, Curator of Tropical Waters at the Vancouver Public Aquarium. A figure I would believe to have done the research before standing on such morale, yet what would Lee Newman know? He's only the Curator of Vancouver Public aquarium.

I have now idea what Lee Newman would know, not without knowing anything more than a name. That's why scientific studies are done in the first place; otherwise, we'd all be running around with the conjectures of the ancient Greek theoreticists still. The problem with people stating opinions in such a way on these forums is that it appears that they are stating facts, not opinions. I simply asked for proof to back that up. As RD speaks out so strongly against it, I don't see the harm in asking for some research to support that.

And people wonder why I no longer spend much time on this forum.

Not the first time over the years you have been asked to show proof, on this forum or others. I'm not sure why this is such a sore spot for you or CursiveDuck. You made some statements, so let's see you back it up.

Yes, my bad for misleading people into thinking that feeding beefheart over a prolonged period will cause excessive fat deposition in a fishes liver. :boxed:

And people wonder why I no longer spend much time on this forum.

I didn't say you were misleading or not. I simply asked you to back up your claims with proof.

You have a connection to the internet right? I would presume so as you've posted. It's just a simple search into google scholar will help find your answer. I'm sure RD has a busy schedule and doesn't have time to do the research for you. After my exams if you are seriously looking for studies, and not just trying to prove a point, I will try and find you some studies as I have access to loads of academic databases as a student. I will be done my exams later this week, so if you seriously want an article just PM me and I'll take the time to help you find one.

It's not up to me to prove these points. If someone wants to come on here and state something as fact, should it not be up to them to provide the proof? Otherwise, all I am stating is that possibly it is just an opinion, not fact. And otherwise, they could possibly be misleading people.

But hey, if you have lots of time to be RD's little research assistant, by all means feel free to provide the proof for his comments.

Feel free to make whatever logical assumption that you want.

Okay, I've made that assumption.

Lee Newman, Curator of Tropical Waters at the Vancouver Public Aquarium has spoken out against feeding beefheart many times, for the same reason as I do, over time it tends to lead to fatty degeneration of the liver. According to one of the DVM's that specialise in aquatic animal medicine at the U of FL, fatty liver disease is considered as being one of the main causes of death in aquarium fish.

Now please answer a direct question - can you direct us to some scientific studies that have looked at this correlation?

So the logical assumption is.....the answer is "no"?

Why, are you thinking of feeding beef to your fish?

No, I was actually wondering if there were any studies to be found that discuss the correlation between beef and liver disease in fish, that someone could point out?

I thought that was pretty clear. :smokey:

Are there any studies to be found that discuss the correlation between beef and liver disease in fish, that someone could point out?

Yes they are convicts. I've bred them before and I know it's not hard...usually. I picked these up so my daughter had something nice to look at and that we could fit a few of them in without spending a small fortune. I'm actually partial to the convicts as they breed so easily and my daughter enjoys seeing the babies.

Oh yeah,nothing like watching your kids looking at baby fish. There's a bit of excitement there that most of us have lost as adults.

Convicts breeding just involves a male and female, and adding water...but it's always great when you first get into breeding to see the first spawn. :thumbs:

And once you successfully raise the fry, you'll be ready for other species. Congrats!