Abrasion? on male pearl gourami

[Finny]

Hi,

Does anyone know what is wrong with the skin surrounding the pectoral fin of my male pearl gourami? The area seems to have lost the scales and has the appearance of inflamed tissue. I have included some pictures. Any help you may have would be much appreciated. I am thinking of treating with Melafix. Thanks very much.

Edited November 6, 2007 by Finny

[Finny]

I have added a close-up picture of the affected area of the gourami. I sure would appreciate some feedback on what remedy I could try to help my fish. Thank you.

[Finny]

I have added a close-up picture of the affected area of the gourami. I sure would appreciate some feedback on what remedy I could try to help my fish. Thank you.

Well I have been giving the gourami some treatment with kanamycin in a separate quarantine tank. He is on his last dose and there really hasn't been that much improvement, maybe slight if anything.

I am thinking about trying "PolyGuard" made by Seachem. Anyone have any experience with this medication?

[Willfishguy]

How is this guy doing?

The problem looks like a bacterial infection which could be secondary. What do you think caused this? I would certainly isolate it and I'd hit it with EM, organicure and lifebearer. It's kind of a shot gun approach, but mixing the three is relativey safe for the fish and they cover almost all the common ailments.

What's the water quality like?

[Finny]

Here's an update on my gourami.

In my last post I had treated with kanamycin with really no improvement. I left it for a week or so and the inflamed area seemed to be becoming larger. The water parameters were fine and all the other fish in the community tank had no problems.

It seemed to me that if I didn't do something the fish would slowly be eaten away by this ulceration....so I decided to take him to a veterinarian. She diagnosed it as ulceration caused by a bacterial infectection and prescribed the antibiotic Baytril. This is much stronger than those that can be bought at the LFS. I could have had a skin scraping done to determine the exact bacterium causing the ailment, but decided to start with an antibiotic treatment first. This particular antibiotic has to be administered by injection. I would either have to bring him to the vet clinic every day for his shot or do the injection myself. I have over 16 years experience with animal injections in my job as a medical research lab technician so I decided to do the injections myself.....how much harder would it be to inject a fish rather than a mouse or a rat?? So the vet showed me exactly how to perform an intracoelomic injection on my fish and that is what I did every day last week.

I think the medicine has helped him. The inflamed area is still pinkish looking, but according to the vet it will never look like it did before the infection. From what I understood, he will probably form a sort of scab-like covering over the area. Anyway the ulceration has stopped spreading and seems to be scabbing over slightly. He is going in for a follow-up next week. I'll post an update then.

[Willfishguy]

So the cause of the ulceration is a bacterium. That then means the ulcer was created by the bactera. OK, then why did the bacteria cause the alceration? Did the fish contact the bacteria some how from your tank or was the fish already carrying before you acquired it?

If the fish contacted it from the tank then I'd have to say that you have pathenogenic bacteria on the rise in your tank. Knowing this I'd have to ask myself what is in the tank that stressed the fish enough to weaken it to become susceptible to the bacteria? I'd also have to ask myself what's in the water that provides a suitable environment for pathenogenic bacteria?

If the fish was the carrier before you acquired it (most likely), then for a normally healthy fish to be affected by a bacteria laying dormant within it's body, the fish would have to be exposed to high levels of stress. Again, I'd have to ask myself what caused the stress in the first place. Did another fish cause this or is there something wrong with the water quality?

As far as the vet saying "it will never look like it did before the infection.", that's not entirely true . If the fish completely recovers from this ulceration, then a person will not be able to tell if the fish had the ailment or where it was if you were to tell them that it did. The only reminants of this ailment would be, possibly, but most likely not with this species, different coloured scales growing in over the healed area.

:laughs: I imagined you submerging a mouse under water to give it an injection.

In a lab situation, imperatively, things are kept as sterile as possible; the cages, food hoppers and water bottles are cleaned daily. So in order for a healthy lab animal to catch or be affected by an uncontrolled bactertial infection it would have to be exposed to pore living conditions.

Edited December 9, 2007 by Willfishguy

[Finny]

So the cause of the ulceration is a bacterium. That then means the ulcer was created by the bactera. OK, then why did the bacteria cause the alceration? Did the fish contact the bacteria some how from your tank or was the fish already carrying before you acquired it?

Yes, bacteria is usually the cause of ulceration in most but not all cases so that is not a surprise. I have had this fish for 1.5 years so I doubt he was carrying something for this long and then just exhibited symptoms now.

If the fish contacted it from the tank then I'd have to say that you have pathenogenic bacteria on the rise in your tank. Knowing this I'd have to ask myself what is in the tank that stressed the fish enough to weaken it to become susceptible to the bacteria? I'd also have to ask myself what's in the water that provides a suitable environment for pathenogenic bacteria?If the fish was the carrier before you acquired it (most likely), then for a normally healthy fish to be affected by a bacteria laying dormant within it's body, the fish would have to be exposed to high levels of stress. Again, I'd have to ask myself what caused the stress in the first place. Did another fish cause this or is there something wrong with the water quality?

I do regular weekly water changes and when I test my water all parameters are in "normal" or "safe" limits. I have a peaceful 180 gallon community tank. There are only about 35 fish in the tank and there is no aggression that I have observed and I watch the tank a lot. Of the 35 fish the largest ones are three pearl gouramis and one angelfish and the rest are smaller so there is definitely enough space for the fish so crowding is not an issue. I have the decorations and plants arranged to ensure there are hiding spaces and cover for the fish to feel comfortable in order to avoid stressful situations.

As far as the vet saying "it will never look like it did before the infection.", that's not entirely true . If the fish completely recovers from this ulceration, then a person will not be able to tell if the fish had the ailment or where it was if you were to tell them that it did. The only reminants of this ailment would be, possibly, but most likely not with this species, different coloured scales growing in over the healed area.

What is your experience with this type of ailment in fish? Have you had a fish with ulceration that has healed so it is undectable? If so I would be very interested in a detailed account of the disease and all the treatment administered along with photos if possible.

As for you disagreeing with my veterinarian, that is your opinion. I have dealt with this veterinarian for over 15 years and believe me she knows what she is doing. If she tells me something then I have no reason to question her.

In a lab situation, imperatively, things are kept as sterile as possible; the cages, food hoppers and water bottles are cleaned daily. So in order for a healthy lab animal to catch or be affected by an uncontrolled bactertial infection it would have to be exposed to pore living conditions.

Do you have experience with the daily routine in a research laboratory? This statement tells me that you have totally misunderstood what I have said. By telling you that I work in a research laboratory I meant to inform you that I am very skillful at performing injections in animals. I am not comparing the ailment of my fish to ailments that might be (but not likely in a million years) contracted by laboratory animals. FYI I have a Bachelor of Science degree and have worked in a variety of laboratories in medical research. I have conducted experiments on numerous laboratory animals involving intricate surgeries and dissections. I am also quite skilled in cellular and molecular biology and I have established and grown cell cultures of animal, human and bacterial derivation. I have studied and contributed to research for the cures of alzheimers, schizophrenia, IBS, ulcerative colitis and Crohn's disease and I am a co-author on 8 medical journal publications. So as you can see I am not just some moron that doesn't know the first thing about the biology of living things.

To summarize: I know how to keep my fish's water clean and provide a proper environment for my fish so that they don't just exist but thrive. Occasionally a fish will contract a disease or ailment such as mine did and the keeper is not to blame.

By the way, where were you and your lengthy and long winded diagnoses way back on November 4th when I first posted the problem with my fish?? A lot of good it does now over a month later.

[Willfishguy]

By the way, where were you and your lengthy and long winded diagnoses way back on November 4th when I first posted the problem with my fish?? A lot of good it does now over a month later.

Late sure, but I thought of it more as thorough and helpful if not for you then for anyone reading it. Anyway, I was on a bit of a year long vacation and I didn't get back till Nov. 20ish.

I do regular weekly water changes and when I test my water all parameters are in "normal" or "safe" limits. I have a peaceful 180 gallon community tank. There are only about 35 fish in the tank and there is no aggression that I have observed and I watch the tank a lot. Of the 35 fish the largest ones are three pearl gouramis and one angelfish and the rest are smaller so there is definitely enough space for the fish so crowding is not an issue. I have the decorations and plants arranged to ensure there are hiding spaces and cover for the fish to feel comfortable in order to avoid stressful situations.

I didn't think it was caused by another fish picking on it, but I threw it in there to cover that base. I believe there is something wrong with your water. I believe you have an accumulation of phosporous and nitrogen compounds in your water. Compounds that provide an ideal environment for pathenogenic bacteria. Pathenogenic bacteria, as you know, do not just spring up out of nowhere, there has to be a carrier. And because this seems to be an isolated case, then I have every reason to believe that this fish is the carrier and contacted it from eating bird droppings during it's time in a fish farm grow-out pond.

When you say you test you water parameters I assume you mean pH and ammonia and they are safe and normal?

How much of a weekly water change do you do?

To summarize: I know how to keep my fish's water clean and provide a proper environment for my fish so that they don't just exist but thrive. Occasionally a fish will contract a disease or ailment such as mine did and the keeper is not to blame.

I am not blaming you for anything or trying to make you feel guilty, what I am trying to do is help you understand why your fish came down with this disease so you can help heal it now and prevent any future occurance. According to you, you said in your AA intro that you've been only keeping fish for a little over a year. Correct? If that is the case then you are, compared to my 30 years of fish keeping and my 20 years as a professional aquarist, just a newb. Or better put, an amateur.

What is your experience with this type of ailment in fish? Have you had a fish with ulceration that has healed so it is undectable? If so I would be very interested in a detailed account of the disease and all the treatment administered along with photos if possible.

My experience is, that it is caused by poor water quality and I've seen and healed literally tens of thousand of fish with this most common of bacterial ailments. I was hired on at the SFU genetics guppy lab to rid this problem from all their wild caught rare guppies and I did it with out using any medication. After the fish were all back to good health I then trained the faculty how to keep rare and endangerd fish alive in a fishroom environment. Everyone had a Dr. in their name, yet I've never graduated from high school.

As the manager of Canada's 3rd largest fishroom for several years, I cared for litterally millions of fish. Anabantoides of the genus Trichogaster and Loricariides of the genus Hypostomus and many many other pond raised fish came in to the fishroom with this ailment and I healed 95% of them all. Those that did die were to far gone by the time I recieved them.

As for you disagreeing with my veterinarian, that is your opinion. I have dealt with this veterinarian for over 15 years and believe me she knows what she is doing. If she tells me something then I have no reason to question her.

Fins, flesh and scales grow back on fish. I know this because I've seen it happen thousands of times.

Do you have experience with the daily routine in a research laboratory? This statement tells me that you have totally misunderstood what I have said. By telling you that I work in a research laboratory I meant to inform you that I am very skillful at performing injections in animals. I am not comparing the ailment of my fish to ailments that might be (but not likely in a million years) contracted by laboratory animals. FYI I have a Bachelor of Science degree and have worked in a variety of laboratories in medical research. I have conducted experiments on numerous laboratory animals involving intricate surgeries and dissections. I am also quite skilled in cellular and molecular biology and I have established and grown cell cultures of animal, human and bacterial derivation. I have studied and contributed to research for the cures of alzheimers, schizophrenia, IBS, ulcerative colitis and Crohn's disease and I am a co-author on 8 medical journal publications. So as you can see I am not just some moron that doesn't know the first thing about the biology of living things.

Nope, but I use to have a girlfriend who worked deep in the catacombs of the Foothills Hospital, where they kept all their lab animals. She use to take me down there and show me some of the going ons. I though that by you working in a lab and using the lab as an example, you'd better understand how your fish became ill. What do you think would happen if a mouse cage was only 25% cleaned once a week every week for over a year. The accumultion of mouse waste would be to the point of disease causing. The same goes with fish tanks and fish. 25% water change once a week for a year is not enough water change to sustain a healthy tank over the course of a year. Some people get lucky, most don't and start experiencing fish die offs. Then they go to the LFS/LPS and buy new ones and put them in the unheathy tank and the fish die and then the person goes back to the LFS/LPS and blames the store for selling them sick fish.

Congrats on the credentials even though medical reseach does not interest me in any way. I do have a question though, I have heard that in the US 'cures for disease' are illegal, is this true, if so, is it the same in Canada?

Edited December 10, 2007 by Willfishguy

[Finny]

Compounds that provide an ideal environment for pathenogenic bacteria. Pathenogenic bacteria, as you know, do not just spring up out of nowhere, there has to be a carrier.

Uh....the word is PATHOGENIC :rofl: Kind of hard to take you seriously after that gaff, 30 year fish keeper or not!

As for the rest of your blathering..... :rofl: :poo: -roll-

[fatpuffer]

Okay folks...play nice.

Js

[Willfishguy]

If the fish heals under your care you'll see that it's wound heals completely. Another thing I'd like to point out is that the average person cannot afford to go to the vet everyday to have their $5 fish injected with antibiotics. What we do is, we get a 5 gallonish sized tank, a heater and a small filter and set a hospital tank. It only cost about $50.

Good luck and I hope your fish does well.

Edited December 10, 2007 by Willfishguy