Ph Issues In Calgary

[mattpf]

does any bdoy else on here notice that the ph in our tap water one day can be as low as 6.5 and not even a day later it will be over 7 maybe 8. does anybody know why its doing this and what i can do to stop stressing my fish doing water changes,for some reason no matter what the ph will always buffer up in my tanks to over 8.is the minerals buffering up our water or is it co2 causing it,i have no idea how co2 would be getting into our water??

[jcgd]

does any bdoy else on here notice that the ph in our tap water one day can be as low as 6.5 and not even a day later it will be over 7 maybe 8. does anybody know why its doing this and what i can do to stop stressing my fish doing water changes,for some reason no matter what the ph will always buffer up in my tanks to over 8.is the minerals buffering up our water or is it co2 causing it,i have no idea how co2 would be getting into our water??

How long has it been out of the tap before you are testing it. Lots of gas can get into the water before it comes out of the tap so unless you let it age for a few hours your readings aren't accurate.

If it's just co2 in the water it wont stress your fish when the ph goes back up. Your hardness wont change and that is what would stress them out. Unless the co2 is so high it gasses the fish during the water change which would be very unlikely.

[mattpf]

no the fish are flower and tiger rays,probably the most challenging of fish to keep.i dont have a drip system hooked up to this tank and do one big waterchange once a weeks about 60%. so it would make sense with waterchange that big i maybe gassing my rays. i have taken a sample of water out of the tap though and let it sit for 2 hours than tested it and still 6.8??? i live in the last community in the se before you exit the city ,the water from glenmore takes some time to arrive here.now why would they add co2 in the water??? has anybody ever tested the water from the res or the bow before on here?

my original theory was the runoff is causing unstable ph.the snow melts through thick forest until it hits the river system.the ph of snow and rain is always low around 6 ! than possibly the fact that the water than runs through all the forest may lower the ph even more kinda like peat will lower ph of water thats already kinda low.But the mineral content from the elbow river naturally buffers up the water.

i do 60% water change my tanks always at 8.2 or higher when wc day comes i than mix 60% tap water with ph of around 6.8.this is whats causing stress i think if in fact its not co2 and just like i said? but i have talked to others in the city they tested their ph and its high and from same water supply ,so why is mine so low at the far south end of the city?

[RD.]

What exactly are you using to test your pH?

Also, take a glass of tap water & allow it to sit overnight, not just a couple of hrs, then test your pH & report back. IMO it is virtually impossible for Calgary water to have a pH of 6.8 out of the tap.

As previously mentioned tap water contains dissolved atmospheric gas. The colder the water, the more gas, which is why you see small bubbles stuck to everything in your tank during colder weather. Cooler water naturally holds more gas than warmer water, and when that cooler water begins warming up it releases the excess gas. This is why when one allows the gas to escape, only then will you get an accurate pH reading.

For some species of fish this gas can indeed cause stress, enough so that it can peel the slime coat right off of some SA species, such as discus, and chocolate cichlids. I've seen it first hand, which is why with AB water you pretty much have to either run a drip system in the winter months, or allow the water to sit overnight before doing large water changes. (for those species) This could be what's causing the stress on your rays, hard to say with any certainty.

[mattpf]

red deer water is alot different than calgary water too.alberta is a big province dude calgary actually has many different water sources.some communitys in the se here use a private rainwater treatment plant ,north part of city uses bow river water and south sector uses elbow river water,certian times of years we get a blend of bow and elbow water.

how is it impossible for calgary water to have a ph of 6.8??? please explain i might be missing something.whats the ph of rain and snow 6 right.its soft water frozen up high than it runs down through a forest lots of dead fall wood ect. that will lower the ph of that water even more.most time of year the water is stable this is why i think this.

if i take a glass of water let it sit for 24 hours and test the ph and it goes up like i know it will how can i prove if its co2 or just naturally buffering up because of mineral content?

[RD.]

Matt - After this exact same discussion on MFK I would think that by now you would understand that I'm fully aware of everything that you just posted. Part of the reason behind that is I've lived here in AB most of my life, and I'm old enough to be your dad, dude. Seems to me you should spend more time reading, and less time typing.

BTW - Our tap water in Red Deer comes from a glacial fed river, just as your water supply in Calgary does. Our tap water is almost identical to yours. Your best bet would be to talk to someone at the water treatment facility/s that service your neighborhood, perhaps then you'll get it.

Good luck with your rays.

[mattpf]

and how old are you ?? 60

[mattpf]

and you still have not explained how its impossible for our ph to be around 7???? seeing you have lived hear for all your life and have the knowledge of 50 - 60 years please explain

and is their a reason why you have to talk down to me and be a dick

Edited June 26, 2011 by mattpf

[mattpf]

anyways my ph is 7.4-7.5 i run a dripper on my 1300 gallon drip almost 300 gpd and that reading will be pretty accurate to give you ideas.something drives it up above 8 is what i need to know.

rd you were right about the tap water cold water ph is 6.8 and warmer water is above 7. but after that its 7.5 than goes up to 8 or higher by the time i need to do waterchanges. when my tanks were overstocked the ph would go down now i dont have much load in them the ph wants to go up??? theirs nothing in the system for this to happen.would the use of peat in the sump help to keep it at 7.5

i did add some peat yeasterday when the ph was around 8 now today its at 7.5 and the rays are way more active now.it when it goes above 8 i notice they stay hidden and only move to eat

[boydo]

Hey Matt

and is their a reason why you have to talk down to me and be a dick

First off please don't disrespect RD or other member here. RD is an extremely knowledgeable person and we should all be thankful that he is around to steer use in the right direction not matter how hard it hits our ego and our experience. There are very few that have this knowledge let alone are willing to spend time on forums to help us all.

Mountain run off contains natural occurring co2 in the water which will lower the ph right out of the tap due to carbonic acidulation. Like RD mentioned if you let the water sit for about 24 hrs it will return to 7.8-8.2. The water before it hits ambient air conditions will be at this Ph until it is aerated through a tap and exposed to atmosphere conditions then it will drop until these gases leave the water. After the gases leave the pH will return to it's normal range. All water piping needs to run a high pH and cites will even add caustic soda to maintain this pH as it greatly reduces corrosion and protects the pipelines.

I believe like I have mentioned before that some of your trouble is with the pre-filters you use. I have been experimenting with drip systems for years (Blocks, active carbon, RO, DI). I have come to the conclusion that carbon blocks and active carbon filters do not work well in our environment. I found that besides the chlorine or chloramines these filters remove other trace elements that buffer our water. I have no scientific evidence other that my experience. I run over 3000 gallons of aquariums and now I trust only dosing systems regardless of chlorine or chloramines. I had major issues with pH and stress on my fish while using filtered water, everything changed all the time I could barely keep up. I have been dosing with safe (prime in bulk) using a aqua medic reef doser for several years now with incredible success. You could use premixed sodium thisulphate with distilled water in Calgary for the same results. We have hard water here as our water comes from High Mountain run off and glacier sources. This water is very similar to all cites that take water from the foothills. This water although hard is balance very well for fish. I believe that when you run this water through a carbon blocks etc that you not only remove the chlorine but trace mineral or elements that buffer the water. This is why I think you struggle to control your pH.

If you find that your Ph is low before a water change in the aquarium it is caused from a build up of organics and tds(large bio-load or over feeding). As these decompose it will drive your pH down until you perform a water change - Hence reducing the organics. If you are experience this you need to perform larger and frequent water changes. Some people have also had success with adding crush oyster shell to their filter media to help buffer the changes.

I hope this helps you matt and feel free to contact me for more details... I will help you the best I can.

[RD.]

No worries, I've been called worse. lol

Matt - I'm more than happy to help you out, but if you are going to ask for help then you need to be a bit more receptive towards those doing the helping. I was born in Edmonton in the 1950's, so yeah, this isn't my first rodeo with keeping fish in AB water.

Bret gave some very sound advice, and this is from someone who never has water issues.

As Bret stated, no water treatment facility in AB is going to allow acidic water (below pH 7) to run through their city pipes because doing so would cause an increase in corrosion. So even in the spring when rain/snow melt is peaking, and the waters natural pH is on the low end of the scale, the water treatment facilities will buffer the water back up to over neutral (7 pH) to prevent this type of corrosion. In the fall/winter months this is a non issue, as the river water will naturally climb towards pH 7.5-8.0. This same thing occurs in the bodies of water that supply Red Deer, Calgary, and Edmonton. Some slight differences in some values, but overall very similar parameters.

Just keep in mind that solutions with a pH less than 7 are acidic, and solutions with a pH greater than 7 are alkaline, and everything else will begin to make sense.

In Calgary, RD, and Edmonton our water is alkaline based, and using things such as peat in attempt to push the pH down in a tank with an auto drip system will be an exercise in futility. The reason being the buffering capacity aka the alkalinity of our glacial fed rivers which predominately comes from Limestone based mountains will neutralize any acid that you add, sometimes almost as fast as you add it. Scott's (Skynoch) tap water is a prime example, short of adding a boat load of straight acid to his "liquid rock" tap water there will be little effect to any great degree on his pH. As fast as he adds it, it's buffered out, and his pH will climb right back to where it normally sits. For the vast majority of freshwater species of fish stability in a tank is far more important than attempting to reach some magical number. The yo-yo effect that takes place in your tank/s is probably causing more stress than if you simply left well enough alone, and allowed your rays to acclimatize to your tap water parameters. If you insist on tweaking things you would be better off using an RO mix, but I doubt that's necessary either.

I posted the following link in a previous discussion about Calgary water over on MFK.

http://www.calgary.ca/portal/server.pt/gateway/PTARGS_6_0_777_203_0_43/http%3B/content.calgary.ca/CCA/City+Hall/Business+Units/Water+services/Drinking+water/Annual+water+quality+report/Annual+Water+Quality+Report.htm

If you scroll down to the portion titled "We're All Downstream" you can see that from Edmonton south to Lethbridge we are all dealing with the same type of water parameters.

If you scroll down further you can view the average values found in Calgary tap water, based on seasonal variations of the river water, and then factor in that the water treatment plants are adding & subtracting during those seasonal swings to ensure year round stability. Your tap water in Calgary should always fall somewhere between slightly over

pH 7 (in spring/summer), and a pH of 8.(in the fall/winter)

Also as Bret mentioned, if your pH has dropped between water changes, that typically is caused by the organics in your system, fish waste creates acid, as does excess food, and if you find that you're getting pH swings between water changes that typically equates to a bio load that exceeds your tanks capacity, or you simply need to perform larger and/or more frequent water changes to keep things stable. A 300 gpd drip may work perfectly fine in one persons system, and fail miserably in the next. It's all about balance.

HTH