Altum angel shenanigans

[Oneiroid]

I have a few questions about my new Altum angels. I picked up these two at the last ACE auction, so they've had time to settle into the tank. I'd say they are about 2 1/2 inches long (excluding tail) - one maybe a little more, the other maybe a little less - I am pretty lousy at guaging sizes. One is definitely smaller but not considerably so. Anyway, they both seem to be in excellent health and eating well.

As of a few days ago, I noticed that the slightly larger one has gotten very agreesive to the slightly smaller one. They were normally very chummy and hung out together. I really don't think it is a size issue, I think it is just bad attitude. As it is now, the agressive guy won't even let the other one emerge from behind the piece of slate he has been hiding behind - If he comes out, he gets chased and nipped. I am familiar with keeping other SA cichlids including dwarfs and discus so I know each of these fish are entitled to their own personalities, but I have never kept angels before so perhaps someone can help me with the following questions:

1. Does this guy simply have a bad attitude? If I were to trade him in for a different altum, could this potentially solve this problem?

2. Is it preferrable to keep angels in numbers of one, two, or several?

3. Is there any general information about angels (Altums in particular) that I may be overlooking?

More info one the tank:

37g tall

Temp: 82 deg F

Heavily planted

2 Altum angels

2 baby SAEs

10 mid-sized rasbora hets

14 little clown loaches

3 otocinclus

Feeding Omega flake and NLS community pellets

[Michael Roth]

In my experience, angels have always been vicious little things that slowly kill off everything else in the tank. But I may have just had a bad experience.

[Vallisneria]

I've always heard that its best to keep angels as just 1 fish or a larger group, unless you have a breeding pair. IF kept in little groups/pairs they always pick on eachother.

[Oneiroid]

Would there be any foreseeable side-effects to keeping just one? I am totally game for that, but I don't want him to be lonely if they are supposed to be social.

[Garhan]

To me with the introduction into the new tank, all is in disarray. Once they begin to settle in then they will reestablish a pecking order. I have seen this behavior with both my domestic and wild strains of angels. Often they are territorial and will defend there posts. Sometimes they even will kill each other off. But in the most part there is a pecking order and this ususally will straiten out after some time. Even if they are both males or females.

[Vallisneria]

Would there be any foreseeable side-effects to keeping just one? I am totally game for that, but I don't want him to be lonely if they are supposed to be social.

I dont' know about altums but i have kept my marble angelfish all by herself(in a community tank) for 6 years and she has never had any problems. She is very active and sociable, never hiding.

[Oneiroid]

Garhan - how much time do you think is reasonable for me to wait and see if the two of them arrange a detent? I think they've been having this little spat for about a week now. The one who's getting picked on does not appear to be very happy because he is always confined to his hiding spot, but he otherwise looks healthy. I am just wondering how much of this the picked-on guy can endure before his health deteriorates.

degrassi - thanks, if my two angels don't work it out I'll just keep one.

[Oneiroid]

Update...

It seems like the slightly smaller angel is getting tired of taking the crap of the other guy. Today I've noticed him emerging from his slate hide-out and being quite uncharacteristically forward. There has been much posing, fin flicking, and flinching. And every so often they'll duke it out in a kissing fight. Neither of them appear to be damaged after the few rounds I witnessed. The clown loaches get very excited when this happens and many of them will swim up to see what's going on - it looks like they are a swarm of little referees! So cute.

Anyway, the slightly smaller guy still retreats behind that slate, but this is progress right? Or is this a sign of more trouble?

[wandj]

I think the typical "group" idea should apply with Angels, Discus, Tiger Barbs, etc you get the point.

Two fish: weakest fish gets ALL the butt-kicking.

Three fish: weakest fish gets 1/2 of the butt-kicking.

Four fish: weakest fish gets 1/3 of the butt-kicking.

Five fish: weakest fish gets 1/4 of the butt-kicking, etc etc.

If you were smacked around ALL the time as opposed to just once a week, in which scenario would you be healthiest?

One solution: use tank divider.

Another solution: get more Altums of similar size.

Another solution: get more tanks.

I'm sure there are other solutions. And fish are differents. The biggest is not always the aggressor.

My tank scenario.

Two large adult Discus do not harass any of the other small Discus. They only chase them out of their "corner" if they get too close, but they never chase them around the tank or peck at them.

The other small Discus (4 of them) are all chasing and pecking at each other. No harm, it really is not very often, and they all look healthy.

My 2 cents.

[Oneiroid]

Thanks for the input Wandj.

I think my two angles may have finally come to an agreement. It looks like the rules are that the slightly smaller guy is allowed to go about his business as long as he stays on his side of the tank and does not temp the middle line. The slightly bigger guy is free to 'infringe' on the other guy's side of the tank to chace him behind the slate, but does not seem to do so unless the other guy pushes and/or breaches that middle boundary.

I will continue to keep an eye on them for now, and if the situation worsens, I'll pull one of them. But I think they may have come up with a solution for now.