RD.

Another great looking tank, thanks for sharing.

Beautiful set up ........

Iodine is poisonous if taken internally, but is another known external wound healer. Sheesh Smokey, you're not supposed to be drinking the stuff. BTW - the link I posted above is now working, you might want to check it out.

No problem, I assumed you were thinking about the instructions on your AquaPlus container. From the link posted above: * Note: Products where the second "Y" is in brackets are those which state that they remove chloramine, but in most cases contain only sodium thiosulfate (the same as standard dechlorinators for chlorine only). Usually, a higher dose is recommended for chloramines - this is to make sure the chlorine part is split from the chloramine and neutralised - however, this releases the ammonia part, so the chloramine is not fully dealt with. An example of the manufacturers' awareness of this, is shown by the fact that API recommend Ammo-Lock in conjunction with Stress Coat, if you need to deal with ammonia. In cases where the ingredients are not stated for standard dechlorinators, it is highly likely that the dechlorinator is sodium thiosulfate.

Val - I think Smoke was referring to Pimafix, not Melafix? Even still, I'd like to read about any issues using Pimafix. Care to elaborate Smokey?

Hmmmm, it's hanging for me now too? Basically just some info on their own observations & field tests, along with some "before & after" pics of some seriously messed up fish. Seemed like an unbiased report on what it will, and what it will not do. I have some Pimafix, never used the stuff, hopefully never will.

Oh c'mon Valerie, let's have our first little board spat. To be honest, I have no idea if all ABS plastic is made from the same ingredients, or if the US/Canada regulations vary? Not knowing the long term affects of ABS and chloramine treated water, I prefer to error on the side of caution & use pipe I know I can drink from, and not pipe I use to pee down. :P

Although many people have used ABS pipe in their tanks, PVC is safer long term. ABS is used for waster water so the regs are rather loose as far as the chemical composition. PVC - Poly Vinyl Chloride (comes in grey or white) ABS - Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene PVC is used for cold water supply, and CPVC for hot water. ABS is used for drainage so there are no restrictions on the toxicity of the chemicals added to it. You might want to keep that in mind before you add any ABS to your tank, especially if you have chloramine in your tap water, as it tends to break plastic down over time. The Mbuna will use the caves (and 2" should be plenty big enough) but most peacocks won't. With the exception of A. jacobfreibergi the majority of haps/peacocks are open water fish, not cave dwellers. You can get various designs such as a --< joint, and then cover the pipe with rocks. It looks natural, but offers a sturdy cave for the fish to pass through. You'd be amazed at how small of a space these fish can swim through. If you want caves that the females can use to get away from aggressive males, just use smaller diameter PVC. Some people use them just for the females, and when the females are holding they simply lift the cave out with their hands covering each end of the cave.

What, you didn't believe me? :ph43r: Randy will also fax you a copy of the most recent analytical report, if you ask nicely. BTW - in the early part of 2002 the city discontinued water softening. The GH in RD tends to run at approx 150 mg/l in the spring/summer, and 200 mg/l in the winter. KH at approx 90 mg/l. With a PH that's close to 8.0 year round, it's pretty much perfect for African cichlids.

I note that the instructions state that when you add the Sea Chem Prime to the TANK rather than to the new water prior to adding, you have to base the amount on total tank volume rather than on the new water addition volume. Since you are adding ro remove chloramines as well as chlorine, a double dose would be called for, and 2 capfuls would be the appropriate amount for a 55 gal tank. Directions: Use 1 capful (5 ml) for each 200 L (50 gallons) of new water. If I treat the entire tank volume, which I do, that 'should' be 1 capful on a 55 gallon tank. I have to use 2 capfuls when performing a 30-40% water change on my 55, when using a python to add the water directly to the tank. (a double dose)

Off of another site.............. "I called and talked with Ebo Jager. They said that depending on where the unit is sold, the government requires them to be UL approved if they want to be able to sell it as a "submersable" unit. They said there is no difference between the models with and without this labeling and it is only to comply with the laws in those areas. They said it was ok to go ahead and completely submerse the unit in the water. BigAl's is in Canada and they are one of the countries that require the UL rating so that is why since we both bought one from them they came with this wording imprinted." ......................................................... FYI - Tronic heaters have the same verbage about not submersing below the line (which is marked near the top of the heater). Interesting considering these are made by Hagen (which is based in Canada) and sold in Canada, and advertised as "fully submersible" on their Canadian site, yet are not marked as such on the packages, and even carry the same warning as the E-J heaters. Go figure ..... http://www.hagen.com/canada/english/aquati...=01007620011001

David - I find that's it's usually best to check with a lab tech at the water treatment facility. Some of these guys/gals can be a wealth of information, and can even let you in on any future plans the water treatment facility may have in store for down the road. That's how I first found out we had chloramine in our water. No mention of chloramine (at least at the time) on the city of RD web site, and no mention of it on the cities analytical water report. The city clerks had no idea, and even some of the staff at the water treatment plant didn't know. The bottom line is, if they mix ammonia with the chlorine, they are using chloramine.

It might have been that their server was down, it's working for me now.

Some additional info here: (with pics) http://www.koivet.com/coolstuff/melafix/

From what I can gather Calgary only uses chlorine. http://content.calgary.ca/CCA/City+Living/...lity+Report.htm Another interesting read for Calgarians: http://www.calgaryaquariumsociety.com/Arti...lawi_Water.html

Here you go Smokey, pin it if you feel the need. And please ignore any spellin errors. Unless you have pristine unchlorinated water available for your tanks, at some point you'll need to decide which water treatment product will give you the best bang for your buck. The first thing you need to do is find out what your local water utility uses to treat the bacteria in your tap water. The water in Red Deer is treated with chloramine (which is made from a mixture of chlorine and ammonia), so I need to use a product that will not only deal with the chlorine, but also convert the ammonia into a safe form so the fish don't suffer from an ammonia spike after each water change. I currently use Seachem Prime, but I'm about to experiment with Cloram-X. It appears to be a much less costly way of removing chlorine, chloramine, and ammonia from tap water. Cloram-X is simply the dry powder form of Amquel. (which means more bang for your buck!) http://aquascienceresearch.com/cloram-x.html FYI - chlorine dissipates as it runs through the water mains, and depending on where you are situated from the source in your town/city, and how much water you remove at each water change, you 'might' be able to go without adding a water conditioner. Also keep in mind that 'some' water conditioners also treat for heavy metals, so if your lines or local water is high in copper/lead etc, you might still need to condition the water. If you have chloramine in your local water supply there's really no getting around using a water treatment. Chloramine can retain it's full strength for several weeks. If you simply have to deal with chlorine, the least expensive way would be to use Sodium thiosulfate, which can be bought in bulk from a number of sources, such as the one below. http://www.syndel.com/Sodium-Thiosulfate-P51C9.aspx The following site provides a review on most of the popular water treatments currently on the market. http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/rev-cond.htm Please note that some of the water treatment products that state on the bottle they will remove chloramine (such as Hagen AquaPlus), actually do no such thing. The info in the link above will explain why. As stated previously, I currently use Seachem Prime, but the reality is I'm not concerned with having a slime coat additive (healthy fish already produce their own slime coat) and heavy metals aren't a concern due to the fact that our water mains in this area, as well as our house pipes, are coated with a thin layer of bacteria, as well as lime scale, so the chances of "heavy metals" leaching into our tap water is slim to none. If you live in an established area (meaning the streets & homes weren't just recently built), and your PH is 7.5 or higher, the chance of having "fish toxic" amounts of heavy metals in your water is very slim. The higher the PH, the less corrosive the water will be to your piping & joints. The most important thing to do (even if you have hard water with a high PH) is to let your taps run before adding water to your aquariums. The idea is to NOT use water that has been sitting for an extended period of time (as in overnight) as it will contain higher levels of metals than if it has ran for a period of time. (and been flushed out) I wrote the following over a year ago, but the info may help explain some of what takes place when using water treatments such as Seachem Prime. Having been converted to the "dark side" by several Python users I'm now adding my water conditioner for Chloramine to the tank as I refill with fresh water via a Python. Having said that, I wanted to make sure that my water conditioner (Seachem Prime) was indeed binding the ammonia once the chlorine & ammonia were split. Unfortunately the vast majority of ammonia test kits do NOT test for free ammonia, only 'total' ammonia so I was uncertain as to what was happening once the fresh water & Prime mixed in my tank. I found the following info on Seachem's site & decided to purchase their Multi Test Kit. (for Free/Total Ammonia) ........................................................ "If the pH drops ammonia will not be released back into the water, and even if it did, it would be ionized ammonia (NH4+) which is totally non-toxic; only free ammonia NH3 is toxic. The only time ammonia removal products will release ammonia is if the pH goes up, WAY UP, like around 12 to 14! That only occurs when testing with Nessler or salicylate based ammonia kits... they raise the pH to convert all ammonia to free ammonia and test for free ammonia at pH 14. So actually if you are using ammonia removal products and test for ammonia with these type of tests you will get false readings for ammonia. You can get a somewhat accurate result with a salycilate based kit if you take your reading right away rather than waiting the full prescribed time, but the trick is knowing when exactly to take that reading. Our Ammonia Alert and MultiTest: Free & Total Ammonia both use a gas exchange based sensor technology that is not affected by the presence of ammonia removal products. Both give an accurate reading for free ammonia without any interference. Depending on how much chloramines you have you can use either Prime or Safe. Prime is a liquid product for removing, chlorine, chloramine and ammonia. It actually removes chlorine by converting it to harmless chloride; the chloramine is removed by breaking the chlorine-ammonia bond, the chlorine is then reduced to chloride and the ammonia is then bound until it is utilized within the biological filtration. Unless you raise your pH to 12 it will not release the ammonia back. Safe is a dry version of Prime and is thus more concentrated. Economically it is the best way to go, however many prefer using a liquid product for ease of use. All of the ammonia removal products on the market work chemically essentially the same way, they reduce chlorine to choride and bind up ammonia. But, the chemical species used are all slightly different" ............................................................... According to the info on the Seachem Prime bottle one capful should treat 50 gallons of fresh water (@ 3 mg/l of chloramine), but they also state: "for exceptionally high chloramine concentrations a double dose may be used safely." Ok, so I splurged & bought the Seachem Multi Test Kit which tests for both Free/Total Ammonia, and the results on 'my' tap water were somewhat surprising. In a 55 gallon tank, and when doing a 30% water change I need to use 2 capfuls of Seachem Prime in order to get the 'free' ammonia level down to .01 mg/l or less. I took the water sample & tested within seconds of my tank being filled. I also tested again a few hours later. When using 1 capful my free ammonia reading was .05 or better, which IMO is too high a concentration for fish over an extended period of time, in a high PH water. My tap water is PH 8.0, which means a higher toxicity of ammonia, vs a lower PH. My bio filters (two AC 500's) take over 24 hours to remove the total ammonia after a water change of 30%. Just a word of caution to people with chloramine in their tap water, if you're uncertain as to the level of chloramine in your local water, you may want to purchase one of these test kits to make sure all of the ammonia is indeed being bound by your water conditioner. Hope this info helps ........

I would think the Angels would be most affected by high nitrates. When in Calgary, you might want to pick up some Seachem Prime (water conditioner) if you stop in at Gold Aquariums. I believe a 500 ml bottle is $19.99? With RD water I've tested and found I need to use twice the recommended dosage in order to safely bind all of the remaining ammonia. Hagen's Aqua Plus is only a problem IF your tap water contains chloramine. Although they state it will remove chloramine, it does not. What it does is break the chlorine/ammonia bond, leaving your bio filter to deal with the sudden ammonia spike, which in some cases, depending on the size of your bio filter, along with the size of the water change, can take 24 hrs or more to be removed. Red Deer water has chloramine, hence it's not a product I would recommend using here in RD. More info can be found here: http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/rev-cond.htm It's impossible to say with any certainty what caused these deaths, but hopefully things are now under control & it won't happen again.

dither - another question (although I don't suspect this caused any sudden deaths) but what do you use as a water treatment? Any chance you're using Hagen Aqua Plus?

The PH in Red Deer is fairly constant year round at 8.0 (slight seasonal fluctuations of 7.8 - 8.0) Had it been PH shock I suspect the fish would have shown distress from the get go, not died several days later. dither - in the other thread you posted ......... Please provide some details as to how the tank was cleaned (and rinsed) and what you used to "rebuild" this tank. As far as the mortar, were these rocks (and gravel) all cleaned, scrubbed, soaked in a bleach/water mix, rinsed several times, and soaked in dechlorinated water before adding to the tank? If not, chances are something leached from these rocks causing your fish to be poisoned. Landscaping rocks are fine & dandy (I would pass on those with mortar on them) but they do need to be thoroughly cleaned and rinsed before using in an aquarium.

Hey Val, so sorry to hear about that. What a bummer.

The merits of WC labs is quite simply, genetics. FYI - the pic of that wild caught lab was taken sans a flash, with not the best of camera, and it was taken after a large water change so he was most likely somewhat stressed. The camera, the photographer, the lighting, etc-etc-etc can all make a huge difference in what the fish looks like via a digital image. Also, male Mbuna can get a bit narly looking as they mature, and without knowing the exact age of this fish it's impossible to know what he may have looked like in his 'prime'. Wild caught yellow labs retail for $100 US per fish, so you need some serious customers before you spend the money to import them. Line bred labs (in quality strains) have been bred for max color, which means soild yellow with crisp black fins, and no barring. The problem is, there are very few quality line bred strains out there, and most of the 'pet store' stock should be culled, not sold. As to the merits of wild caught, I think Mark from Cichliddomain.com said it best in this comment........ "There are usually few if any visible differences between captive bred and wild fish although it is very common to find that the captive bred fish look superior. With Yel Labs the wilds tend to have deeper tones of yellow and the black markings are crisp, not faded. The reasons for wild Labs being so expensive were explained very well earlier in this thread. Are wilds worth the price? That depends on what your ultimate goal is. If all you want is pretty fish then don't waste your money on wilds. If you are going to start a breeding operation then that's a different story. I compare the breeding stock of fish to agriculture. Foundation seed is far more expensive than registered seed, which is more expensive than certified seed, which is more expensive than the grain that is sold as a commodity. Why should it cost more if the seeds all look the same? Because each generation away from the foundation tends to be more degenerated. With seed the result is lower yields and lower quality. With fish the results are usually loss of color and increased deformities or culls which equates to the same thing.....lower yields and quality." Here's a pic of a WC lab: (he has 30 for sale at $100 US per fish) http://www.kerrigansaquatics.com/lab_caeruleus.htm Here's a link that shows another WC lab that Mark from cichliddomain sold a few months back. (large fish at the top of the page) http://www.cichliddomain.com/labs.htm Here's an F1 female that appears to be holding. IMO nice color, but again, not the intense yellow/orange you see in some of the line bred strains. http://www.ida-may.com/image/labg1.jpg Now here's some pics of a German line bred strain. http://www.ida-may.com/image/lab-finnya1.jpg http://www.ida-may.com/image/lab-finnya2.jpg It really all boils down to what you want in your labs. Most people don't want 'dirty' fish with dark barring, but a little black around the face of males is perfectly normal in line bred males, as well as WC males. My intention is to breed my line bred male with both the line bred females (unrelated) and to my F1 females, and see what I come up with. The end results should be fish with great color, and great genetics.

Light barring, as well as black moustaches, beards, etc, are perfectly normal traits in Labidochromis caeruleus, including wild caught labs. Here's a pic of my line bred dom male lab. (with faint black moustache) Here's a pic of the wild caught father to my F1 Labidochromis caeruleus. (I have 11 F1 juvies)

He stated: "There is already over 1000 lbs of slate" .......... IMO he could have gone with 500 pounds of large rocks (along with a few small ones), and the tank would have looked far more impressive than with 1000 pounds of slate. Not only that, but he would have reduced the overall stress on his concrete floor. A win-win situation. I suspect at some point he'll redo the decore, as well as some of the species. An incredible tank nonetheless. Here's another big honking tank, make sure to check out all of the pics during the set up. Unreal ............ http://www.frontosa.ch/

Yep, that's quite the monster tank. I would have set it up differently (sand & big mo-fo boulders) and I would have added some of the larger haps such as Dimidiochromis compressiceps and Nimbochromis fuscotaeniatus. When he first set it up it was pretty much yellow labs & red zebras. Too funny.

Tom - the AP test kit should have a BB date on it. I think they're good for at least a couple of years.