RD.

Very rare, and uber cool. Congrats on a great score. :beer: BTW Dustin - high end koi sell for far more than high end aros. Some of the top Japanese koi sell for hundreds of thousands of $$$. The current record price for a single koi is $850,000.

http://www.electrical-contractor.net/ESF/GFCI_Fact_Sheet.htm

This particular hybrid cross has existed for years. In a random breeding you will end up with mixed results, some looking like the father, some the mother, and some orangish looking yellow labs with no black (or lack of solid black) barring in the dorsal fin, and possibly anal & pectoral fins as well. Several yrs back this cross surfaced in various pet stores across North America, and can still be found today. Typically sold as yellow labs, when in fact they are not. Nothing more than a cheap short cut to producing more colorful yellow labs, out of poor yellow lab breeding stock. I believe that this cross originated in Asia. HTH

Had you said that 20 yrs ago, I'd agree completely, unfortunately when Eheim took them over several yrs ago Ebo heaters have definitely dropped in quality. Ask Henry at Natures Corner how many Ebo heaters he used to have returned. (he no longer sells them) The owner of Pets & Ponds stated the same thing to me just a few weeks back, he has more Ebo Jagers returned for failures than any other brand of heater that he sells. IMO all heaters currently on the market are cheap pieces of crap, that for the most part cost $5 or less to manufacture. The biggest problem is most of the parts and/or manufacture of these heaters are now based in China. Save a few pennies here, and a few there, and look what happens. Marineland's Visitherm Stealth is another classic example of how a decent quality heater took a turn for the worse when it began farming the manufacturing of them out to China. It wasn't long that they had some major failures taking place, with heaters actually bursting open. I read where one person had his 20 gallon blown out by a Stealth Pro that burst open in his tank. Nice. According to Marineland the problem has been resolved with the Stealth Pros (we shall see) and that the model #'s that had issues were their G and H lots. Example, 01H31, 01G31. You can read the lot # at the top of the stem of the heater in white lettering. My advice, buy a controller when possible (which adds some redundancy to your heater in the chance that it sticks in the ON position) and make sure that ALL heaters are on a GFCI receptacle or power bar. Add to that a grounding probe in your tank, and you (and your fish) are about as protected as one can hope to be. Something that everyone should read: http://joejaworski.wordpress.com/2007/09/06/aquarist-found-dead/

Looking good, Blake.

No worries Brad, I understand where you are coming from, it just doesn't make any logical sense (at least to me) to feed foods that don't have any benefit over what I already feed. In fact, when one closely compares the actual make up of other foods, and the micro & macro nutrient levels (something that I am privy to with regards to NLS that the average consumer is not) then it really makes no sense at all. Variety is only as good as the variety of the raw ingredients being used, and the inclusion rates & nutrient levels of those ingredients. But as previously mentioned, your fish, your call. This is just my honest opinion, feel free to take it or leave it. Sounds like you have everything covered well, a 75 will be fine for now, but it's amazing how quickly a FH can put on some serious size. I have some pics of my FH in the link below. http://albertaaquatica.com/index.php?showtopic=31940 If you have any other questions feel free to ask. Neil

Thanks guys!

Back in May when my King Kamfa landed from Thailand at a skinny 3". After 10 days of TLC. 5 months later at 8+". Still a very young Kamfa so hopefully he will blossom more with time. And below is my Red Diamond (most likely ZZ x Kamfa) , that also still has some growing to do. A special thanks to Ryan for providing the camera & his mad skillz for these photos. And a special shout out to Blake (Bluecan) for my most recent addition, a juvie Red Dragon fader that looks FAR nicer in person as he does in the photos below. Deep body, great fins, solid color, and a hump that just keeps getting bigger. This little guy has the makings of a true masterpiece.

Brad, You are correct, the size of the nuchal hump is mostly defined by genetics, while diet, water quality, etc play a smaller role. I'm afraid I'm the wrong person to ask about feeding a variety, IMO NLS contains more variety than what you are going to find feeding 1/2 dozen other brands of pellet foods. All you will really accomplish is diluting the nutrient levels found in NLS. If you are already going to be supplementing with live/frozen, fruit, vegetables etc, I don't see why you would want to feed more than 1 type of pellet, but that's your call. Without seeing the females condition I'm not sure what the best avenue is to take, but if you plan on using eggcrate you best make sure that it is firmly in place as the male will indeed attempt to get to the female. Once they have grown out more, and if they look like they will play nice, you can cut a small access hole in the eggcrate that is only large enough for the female to come & go, keeping the male on "his" side at all times. BTW - what size is this tank? Blake (Bluecan) has a knack for picking quality juvies & growing them out. That Thai Silk was a nice fish, but IMHO the fader that I just bought from him tonight is light years ahead of that fish. Neil

I was wondering if you would respond to this, Blake. I concur with everything that Blake has just stated, especially the diet part. lol My FH have all been raised on NLS pellets, there is no need for any type of "specialty" FH foods that some FH fanatics believe are required for massive kok growth, etc. Any decent quality pellet food will get the job done. Whatever you decide to feed, be careful with meaty foods, FH can be prone to hexamita/spironucleus if/when their gastrointestinal system becomes stressed. They are omnivores, not carnivores as many FH owners treat them. As far as breeding, you're going to need a series of 20 gallon tanks, if you plan on doing things right. Genetics being what they are when breeding hybrids you may only get a handful of high quality specimens out of hundreds of fry, which means that you will need to grow them out to a decent size just to see what you have. Not many LFS (if any?) will be interested in buying 1" fry with no confirmation on the quality of the fish. And most hobbyists only want males with big humps (unless they too plan on breeding)so out of hundreds of fry you may only end up with a few fish with great potential, and hundreds of fish with only so-so potential. As the fry grow & begin to show certain physical characteristics, such as nuchal hump,overall body shape, base color, pearling, fin shape & size, etc you will want to pull the best fish from the comm tank, and grow them out individually. Like what this breeder in Vietnam has set up in the link below. It takes a lot of tanks, a lot of time, and a lot of experimenting with different breeding stock, which is why you see very few breeders in North America attempting to breed these fish on a commercial basis. So unless you go big, be prepared to sell small unsexed fry on Kijiji for $2-5 a pop. HTH

Jason nailed it to a T, nothing really to add to that fine summation.

If you are feeding a quality pellet or flake food, there is no need for products such as Selcon. In fact, it will be a total waste of money. If used to supplement frozen food, different story.

Two AC 110's will provide enough mechanical & bio filtration for even the most extreme stocking levels in a 90 gallon tank. The 325 gallon display tank at Gold's is filtered by three AC 110's, no bio-max rings, lava rock, bio balls, pot scrubbers etc, just sponges, and floss. Here's how my AC 110's are set up. I use one large sponge, three thin blue/white filter pads (sandwiched together), topped off with an AC media bag full of Bio-Max rings. I get superb mechanical filtration out of the large sponge, the blue/white filter media helps catch the finer material, and the Bio-Max rings give me top notch biological filtration. The finer blue/white media wears thin over time, but I haven't bought a new sponge or bio rings in the past 10 yrs. The 40 or so Bio Max rings alone have approx 288 square meters of surface area for bio filtration. In most situations, 2 AC sponges will be more than adequate, I simply like to take things up a notch when it comes to filtration.

Great shots Bret, and always a pleasure touring the masters fishroom, Don.

In case you missed it, the study linked to above does not involve beefheart, or any form of BEEF. Seeing as you were rather adamant about "studies to be found that discuss the correlation between beef and liver disease in fish" ....... at the time I didn't see any point in addressing excessive fats from other dietary sources, or posting links to same. I'm only posting it now, due to some of the more recent comments posted by Ryan. But you already knew that. Good luck with that shiny new moderator badge. Over, and out.

Beefheart is fed by certain breeders because it's a very cheap source of protein, and it does create quick growth, but just like commercial fish operations these breeders are not concerned with longevity, only how quickly they can bring their fish to market. Many "monster" fish keepers do the same in a rush for massive quick growth, not realizing what the long term affects on the health of the fish may be. Even the person who many consider the Godfather of Discus, Jack Wattley, no longer feeds beefheart to his fish, and a few years ago stated in a TFH article that pellets & flakes provide just as good results in his grow outs, and adult breeders. You can read more on that subject here: http://albertaaquatica.com/index.php?showtopic=25190 and here: http://albertaaquatica.com/index.php?showtopic=29550 When you consider the fact that catfish such as Pangasius sanitwongsei are known to live 15-20 years in captivity, one should take into account the whole picture, not just what one can produce in size within the first 2-3 yrs of the fishes life. If Raymond's Lima Shovelnose, Indo Dat, Red Tail Giant Gourami and Bocourti, can all swallow a 10mm pellet down in one gulp, then I think that it's safe to say that your catfish can as well. The key to training a fish for a comm tank such as yours, is to train them when they first arrive & are in a QT tank for the first few weeks. Not only can you monitor their health before exposing any potential pathogens to your comm tank, but during this period you can train them to eat whatever you want. Most catfish will eat cornmeal & molasses dough balls (and I've caught plenty of Channel Catfish to prove it), so almost anything that even remotely smells like food will eventually become their diet, all it takes is some patience on the part of the person training the fish. If you decide that pellets aren't for you, then that's fine too. I originally posted the following information several years ago, and while it doesn't involve feeding beefheart, it does explain what can happen to a fish fed excessive amounts of fat, even when the fish are very young juveniles. The author/s of this paper are considered by many to be experts in the field of health & nutrition of tropical fish. .......................................................................................... The following paper was sent to me & although you need a subscription to read the entire study, the link provides a brief abstract, and I've added a bit more detail below. http://afsjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1577/A03-035.1?journalCode=naja Keep in mind that the info in this report was relating to juvenile African cichlids, that were only 4 weeks old at the start of this 12 week feed trial. Even with very young fish, who require higher levels of both protein as well as fat (due to higher metabolisms), the higher lipid (fat) content found in the trout pellet diet (TP) caused these young fish to develop fatty livers, within a very short period of time. Also, from this report; Now imagine what happens to the liver of an adult African cichlid when fed diets that contain excessive amounts of lipids. The juvie H. ahli (s. fryeri) used in this study faired much better being a carnivore, but it still showed a lipid accumulation in the hepatocytes. (<50%) The P. socolofi had extensive lipid accumulation when fed this TP diet. Those here that know me know that I've been harping about this for some time, but perhaps when people read it first hand from a study performed by the Department of Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences at the University of Florida, they'll understand why I never recommend using some of these various fish foods that are over 10% in crude fat. (for freshwater fish) The connection between excessive lipids & fatty liver disease has been common knowledge in the aquaculture industry for many years, but the interesting part about this study was that it involved African Cichlids, which as far as I know is a first. Suddenly foods that have 10-14% crude fat (min), don't look too appealing as an adult maintenance diet, do they? The photos showing sections of the livers of these young fish after being on a high fat diet was quite an eye opener. :shock: This study came about after some cichlid farms in south FL suffered from some large mortalities in both 1998 & 1999. When the dead fish were examined they showed fatty infiltration of the liver, heavy vacuolation, and severe necrosis of the liver, pancreas, and spleen. It was suggested to the farms that they replace there feeds with one that had a lower lipid content (less than 10%) and supplement the feed with a vitamin premix. Clinical signs in the affected farms were resolved after implementation of these recommendations. ................................................. And last but not least ........ I could understand that, Darcy, if I was some teenage kid who had a habit of talking out of my arse, but you've known me for years, and as you are well aware this is certainly not my first rodeo. In all the hundreds/thousands of posts that I have made on the subject of fish nutrition over the years I think that you would be very hard pressed to find a discussion where I was making things up as I went along. Over the years I have been invited to speak on the subject of fish nutrition & health on various forums around the world, asked to moderate health/nutrition folders on several forums (to which I have always declined due to what I feel could be considered a conflict of interest) and was recently asked to join Bob Fenner's team of advisors on Wetwebmedia (directly due to my knowledge on the subject of fish nutrition), to which I also declined. Over the years I've swapped spit with the best of them, including manufacturers, company reps, marine biologists, zoologists, DVM's, PhD research scientists that specialize in the field of fish nutrition, that have enough letters after their name to sink a ship. I'm not saying that I know it all, because I don't, but I don't expect to be "called out" if I make a statement regarding fish nutrition. I'm rather certain that the creator of this forum didn't bestow me with A-A Mentor status because of my misleading comments to fellow members of this forum. This forum is made up of hobbyists, and as such we all come here for the same reasons, to share our experiences, knowledge, and opinions, and hopefully to help fellow members. I don't expect that any member here should be required to qualify every comment or opinion that they make with a link to a study, journal, or peer reviewed paper, even if the Mod of War personally considers the comment has been posted in a factual manner. (without data to support those comments) It wasn't that you asked, Darcy, it was the manner in which you asked, as in your constant badgering for a definitive answer. Using language such as "RD's little research assistant", to Cursive Duck, who was only offering their assistance, was IMO certainly not called for either. Perhaps in the future a more tactful and respectful approach would be to do your own research, and find your own studies to prove otherwise, if you feel someone's comment may be misleading to other forum members. Cheers

Dr. Peter Burgess MSc, Ph.D.,of the Aquarium Advisory Service in England, is not only an experienced aquarium hobbyist, but also a scientist that specializes in the health & disease in fish. He has written over 300 articles and five books on fish health and is a visiting lecturer in Aquarium Sciences and Conservation at Plymouth University, where he works with the University of Plymouth training students in scientific research. Among his other positions, Dr. Burgess is a senior consultant to the Mars FishCare business and regularly runs fish health & husbandry courses for aquarists, fish scientists and vets. He's also a regular contributor & Fish Health consultant for the Practical Fishkeeping Magazine, as well as other magazines devoted to the fish keeping hobby. Below is an excerpt from the Practical Fishkeeping Magazine titled; Liver Damage and Red Meats, Below is a direct quote from Lee Newman. I'm sure that if I had the time, and really wanted to, I could find scores of qualified proffesionals that work within the aquaculture industry, including many scientists that specialize in the field of fish health, that would also state the exact same thing as the two gentleman above. Most of the research done in the area of fish health over the past 50 years can't be found on Wikipedia, so it's not very realistic to expect myself, or anyone to else "direct us to some scientific studies", and if we can't (or in my case, at this point of the discussion can't be bothered looking), then those comments are automatically considered "misleading". Futhermore, most studies that can be found online, where you don't have to pay a large fee just to read them, are based on commercial fish, as in those raised for human consumption. Those studies don't involve "years" (usually a few weeks at best), nor are they typically designed with the fishes longevity in mind. Feed trials or studies involving species such as Pangasius sanitwongsei would be non existent, as it would be for most species of catfish from that part of the world. My comment in this discussion was to provide what I personally felt was some sound advice regarding the feeding of catfish in captivity. Perhaps in the future instead of nit picking what others have to say when attempting to help fellow members of this site, you can offer something constructive to the conversation. I honestly don't need to prove anything to you, and certainly not on the subject of fish health, or nutrition. Have a nice day.

Yes, my bad for misleading people into thinking that feeding beefheart over a prolonged period will cause excessive fat deposition in a fishes liver. :boxed: And people wonder why I no longer spend much time on this forum.

Feel free to make whatever logical assumption that you want.

Darcy, I think that most of the experts in this field decided to use their funding for more advanced research, instead of studying something that could easily be resolved just by using a bit of common sense. Beefheart originates from warm blooded animals, and contains fats with high melting points, which typically equates to a portion of the fat being stored in the liver. Even though overall beefheart has a rather low fat content (compared to the rest of the beef) cold blooded animals tend to have slow melting, harder to digest for fish, fats. The problem lies in the quantity of beef being fed, and the duration. For long lived species, feeding something such as beefheart will generally equate to fatty deposition of the fishes liver, which generally equates to premature death. The same logic can be applied to feeding trout or salmon chow (which generally have a rather high crude fat content) to tropical species of fish.

Why, are you thinking of feeding beef to your fish?

Why yes, I did happen to notice that but worried you would see it as provocative if I brought it up. :P

They won't touch NLS because they are holding out for the frozen food, and whatever else you are currently feeding. I could have your catfish eating NLS out of my hand in less than 1 week. But I would use the wafers to train them, not those big honking 10MM pellets that are as hard as rock. None of your fish can handle those pellets in a single gulp. Most likely why you are seeing a mess in your filters. The key when feeding pellets is for the fish to take them straight down the hatch, not have tiny particulate matter blowing around the tank from excessive chewing. Also, first mistake when training fish to eat any particular type of food, is to not stop feeding everything else. If there's a choice between frozen or pellets, frozen such as MP will always win out. If a puffer can be trained to eat pellets, catfish should be (and are) a walk in the park. lol As far as feeding beefheart to tropical fish ..... Fish aren't hard wired to assimilate the fatty acids found in beef, anymore than they are hard wired to assimilate large amounts of carbs. These excess lipids get stored in & around the organs, and eventually shorten the fishes lifespan. Can these foodstuffs offer amino acids, and solid growth, yes, no question about that, but that doesn't qualify them as being a good source of food. Some of you guys don't keep any one fish long enough to see the end results of feeding foods such as beef heart long term, but for anyone concerned about longevity beef heart is considered a D grade of food. Even a lot of the major discus keepers have moved away from beefheart over the past decade, for these exact reasons. It's a great food for breeders that simply want quick growth in their juvie fish (so they can take them to market quicker) but it is most certainly not an ideal long term diet. Lee Newman, Curator of Tropical Waters at the Vancouver Public Aquarium has spoken out against feeding beefheart many times, for the same reason as I do, over time it tends to lead to fatty degeneration of the liver. According to one of the DVM's that specialise in aquatic animal medicine at the U of FL, fatty liver disease is considered as being one of the main causes of death in aquarium fish. HTH

Catfish work off of their olfactory senses, and will eat almost anything that smells even remotely close to food. Also, most Paroons in the hobby are raised commercially, so they have been eating pellets since day 1.

White is probably a good sign, it typically means that the tissue is healing. Just keep your water extra clean (as in extra water changes) and it should heal up on its own.