Do you test your phosphate in your planted tanks?

[delphinus]

I have a bit of a phosphate problem in my reef tanks so I've actually invested in a phosphate meter because I'm obsessed with tracking my #'s and I have a hard time with colour-coded test kits .. The Merc test kit which has a very good reputation as a high-sensitivity low-range test kit costs $80, so when I found a an electronic meter that is accurate to 0.01 in the 0.0-2.0 range for not-too-much-more, I jumped on it.

So anyhow, for fun, I tested my tapwater (I live in south Calgary so my water comes out of Glenmore), and it read 0.05ppm PO4. A little higher than I would have hoped, but I guess I'm not really all that surprised (espescially with it being spring and runoff and all that).

However, what disturbs me is that I tested my FW planted tank, and it read 0.13ppm PO4. I was expecting it to be nominal if not outright zero because I thought the plants would be consuming phosphate. Am I incorrect in thinking this should happen?

Is phosphate not as bad a problem in FW as it is in reefs (it's a nasty problem in reef tanks because it inhibits calcification - in short, it kills corals, so in reefs you basically want that number at as close as possible to zero, if not outright zero. This is why many people run phosban, rowaphos, etc.).

[werner]

Phosphate is necessary for plant growth, so you do want a bit. The rate at which it is being consumed will depend on your volume of plants, their growth rate, levels of lighting and other nutrients, etc. I wouldn't worry about testing for it if you're a casual plant grower and aren't using a fertilizer regime that recommends adding specific amounts of PO4 and other nutrients. A reading of 0.13ppm is basically nil, so you don't have to worry about doing any emergency water changes. A recommended level (if you're adding ferts) is about 1-2ppm.

[delphinus]

Cool, thanks for the reply.

I actually do want to eventually get into a fertilizer routine and CO2 and brighter lights but I have to ease myself into it, for both wallet reasons and in terms of how much info I can learn and retain in one go.

It is good to know that 0.13 is basically nil in terms of FW (I was reading plantedtank.net yesterday and noticed people were talking about MUCH higher levels). This is unusual for me because coming from reefs, 0.13 is practically lethal levels. So it's quite a shift for me.

My main concern now, or question rather, is this though. Would you not want nitrate and levels to be "balanced" out? Ie. I was reading something about a Redfield ratio. (Unfortunately the technical details are well over my head at this point.) I was just wondering if you want to nitrate and phosphate to be somewhat equal to each other, in order for the plants to make best use of them and not have algae take over.

My 65g tank is still new so somewhat clean, but my main worry is that it will, in time, become like my 30g planted tank (which I can't wait to take offline because it's so horrible). I clean out the slime algae for hours on end, and within a week it looks like I've done nothing. I actually would run phosphate sponge in an effort to keep it at bay but it rarely worked for longer than a few weeks. So much for "plants will outcompete the algae." I even tried CO2 on that tank but it only made things worse so I gave up on it. It was so bad I wanted to just setup a tank with like 1 fluorescent and plastic plants and just use algae killer additives as needed. I decided instead to give it one more faithful try at planted tanks and I'm determined to not let what happened to my 30g, happen with this new tank. So I have some learnin' to do I guess.

I do have some filamentous algae growing in among a microsword, and it doesn't seem to be receding. Similarly, the plants are not growing quite as much as I would have liked. I'm pushing 2wpg using PC lights, so I imagine this is probably on the low to moderate side instead of high. I'm not sure. My hope is to upgrade to 4xT5 at some point (since the replacement cost of T5's easily trumps the replacement cost of PC's, I'm thinking I'd like to go in that direction eventually). But I realize that there probably needs to be taken into account a carbon source, as well as balanced N-P-whatever's, before getting there.

Sooo ... any advice for a planted tank neophyte?? :smokey:

Phosphate is necessary for plant growth, so you do want a bit. The rate at which it is being consumed will depend on your volume of plants, their growth rate, levels of lighting and other nutrients, etc. I wouldn't worry about testing for it if you're a casual plant grower and aren't using a fertilizer regime that recommends adding specific amounts of PO4 and other nutrients. A reading of 0.13ppm is basically nil, so you don't have to worry about doing any emergency water changes. A recommended level (if you're adding ferts) is about 1-2ppm.

[werner]

I wouldn't worry too much about fertilizing right now, since you have low/moderate light levels (in a deep tank) and no CO2 addition. From the picture you posted, it appears that you don't have a ton of plants in there and only a couple of fast growing species, so they should be happy enough on their own. However, if you decide to upgrade the lights, you should probably add CO2 (pressurized), and then establish a fertilizer regime to support the faster growth. Kind of more of a large jump, than an 'ease yourself in' since you would need to add these at the same time to keep everything in balance.

As you have been reading, there are several methods of fertilizing out there, each with different ratios/levels/mixes of stuff, and its own loyal followers. The method you may want to try will depend on how often you wish to dose, do water changes, etc. Just don't drive yourself crazy testing and dosing; there are no set parameters or formula that will make it all work perfectly. Every setup is different, and the living things in it will always find a way to throw you for a loop A large part of it is just experimenting and going by observation.

Here's some very basic information: planted tank beginner basics

Lots more (too much?) info on the Aquatic Plant Central Forum

[jvision]

I usually shoot for an N-P-K ratio of about 10-1-2

[Loyal to the Oil]

I definetely agree with werner about the lights, ferts, CO2 thing. You really should do all 3 at once because just 2 out of 3 = algae. I started adding CO2 and high light with no ferts and BAM, algae all over. Now that i add ferts with 3 WPG and CO2 my plants have exploded and i have almost no algae (i dont know anyone who has NO algae).

When you decide to make this step let me know and i will send you TONS of links to websites as well as where to get CHEAP ferts and places to get your CO2 stuff.

For now i would recommend adding seachems excel if you arent putting in any CO2...its basically the only other way to add carbon to your tank which is essential for plant growth.

If you have a decent fish load and feed the fish well then your nitrogen and phosphate levels will be more than adaquate (hence why your phosphate reading went up from the tap levels). Some people who have amazing planted tanks dont dose these 2 ferts and do just fine.

In closing DONT be afraid of ferts. I am sure you have read about the Estimative Index (EI) method of dosing dry ferts and its costs let than 10 cents a day from where i buy the ferts. It also VERY easy. Basically all you need is a scale and a spoon and 3 or 4 types of ferts and you are done. So simple once you understand it all.

Like i said i did a TON of research when i got into this 6 months ago and would be glad to share with you.

James

PS hope that eco is working good for you !

[delphinus]

I have a bunch of CO2 equipment kicking around, unused leftovers/spares from a previous attempt at dosing CO2 plus having too many reef tanks and calcium reactors. Have a 10lb cylinder, dual guage regulator, needle valve bubble counter solenoid etc. Plus a spiral CO2 reactor.

So it seems to me I could kick this into gear anytime. It's like a $300 investment to replace it all but here it is waiting to be used (thank heavens for being a pack rat)..

Anyhow, the only real thing stopping me is a lack of understanding. I need more research before jumping into it. Well, that and more light. I'm thinking of going to 4x39W T5HO, that should be a pretty good step up from 2x65W PC? Problem with this is I don't think the wpg rule applies because T5 HO's, with good reflectors, are supposed to be the shizzle, and you see reef tanks being run with T5's that rival halide lit tanks. So the lumens coming out are pound for pound more much per watt than others.

But I guess my real question is, will 4x39W be a good step up or should I look at 6x39W? In fact I'll probably start a new thread for this question.

I definetely agree with werner about the lights, ferts, CO2 thing. You really should do all 3 at once because just 2 out of 3 = algae. I started adding CO2 and high light with no ferts and BAM, algae all over. Now that i add ferts with 3 WPG and CO2 my plants have exploded and i have almost no algae (i dont know anyone who has NO algae).

When you decide to make this step let me know and i will send you TONS of links to websites as well as where to get CHEAP ferts and places to get your CO2 stuff.

For now i would recommend adding seachems excel if you arent putting in any CO2...its basically the only other way to add carbon to your tank which is essential for plant growth.

If you have a decent fish load and feed the fish well then your nitrogen and phosphate levels will be more than adaquate (hence why your phosphate reading went up from the tap levels). Some people who have amazing planted tanks dont dose these 2 ferts and do just fine.

In closing DONT be afraid of ferts. I am sure you have read about the Estimative Index (EI) method of dosing dry ferts and its costs let than 10 cents a day from where i buy the ferts. It also VERY easy. Basically all you need is a scale and a spoon and 3 or 4 types of ferts and you are done. So simple once you understand it all.

Like i said i did a TON of research when i got into this 6 months ago and would be glad to share with you.

James

PS hope that eco is working good for you !

[Kwirky]

When you need potassium nitrate, I have LOTS of the stuff. 50 lbs worth . got it so cheap I can pretty much give it away to anyone who needs some.

I have a little 20g nano I just started with bright light and pressurized co2. I was getting black leaves on the new growth (high phosphates), so I clipped the leaves, dosed some nitrate (15ppm worth over the week), and the black leaves haven't come back.

so i guess the requirement to do all 3 (dosing, co2, bright light) at once is true.

I have a bunch of CO2 equipment kicking around, unused leftovers/spares from a previous attempt at dosing CO2 plus having too many reef tanks and calcium reactors. Have a 10lb cylinder, dual guage regulator, needle valve bubble counter solenoid etc. Plus a spiral CO2 reactor.

So it seems to me I could kick this into gear anytime. It's like a $300 investment to replace it all but here it is waiting to be used (thank heavens for being a pack rat)..

Anyhow, the only real thing stopping me is a lack of understanding. I need more research before jumping into it. Well, that and more light. I'm thinking of going to 4x39W T5HO, that should be a pretty good step up from 2x65W PC? Problem with this is I don't think the wpg rule applies because T5 HO's, with good reflectors, are supposed to be the shizzle, and you see reef tanks being run with T5's that rival halide lit tanks. So the lumens coming out are pound for pound more much per watt than others.

But I guess my real question is, will 4x39W be a good step up or should I look at 6x39W? In fact I'll probably start a new thread for this question.

I definetely agree with werner about the lights, ferts, CO2 thing. You really should do all 3 at once because just 2 out of 3 = algae. I started adding CO2 and high light with no ferts and BAM, algae all over. Now that i add ferts with 3 WPG and CO2 my plants have exploded and i have almost no algae (i dont know anyone who has NO algae).

When you decide to make this step let me know and i will send you TONS of links to websites as well as where to get CHEAP ferts and places to get your CO2 stuff.

For now i would recommend adding seachems excel if you arent putting in any CO2...its basically the only other way to add carbon to your tank which is essential for plant growth.

If you have a decent fish load and feed the fish well then your nitrogen and phosphate levels will be more than adaquate (hence why your phosphate reading went up from the tap levels). Some people who have amazing planted tanks dont dose these 2 ferts and do just fine.

In closing DONT be afraid of ferts. I am sure you have read about the Estimative Index (EI) method of dosing dry ferts and its costs let than 10 cents a day from where i buy the ferts. It also VERY easy. Basically all you need is a scale and a spoon and 3 or 4 types of ferts and you are done. So simple once you understand it all.

Like i said i did a TON of research when i got into this 6 months ago and would be glad to share with you.

James

PS hope that eco is working good for you !