Diet for Discus

[RD.]

I know that a lot of people feed discus beefheart, or beefheart mixes, and while it definitely causes good growth, in a very short time frame, in my opinion it also shortens the lifespan of the fish. Here's a link to a scientific paper that every discus owner/breeder should read.

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci...252008000400008

"This species feeds predominantly on algal periphyton, fine organic detritus, plant matter, and small aquatic invertebrates."

"The alimentary canal of Symphysodon is characterized by a poorly defined stomach and an elongate intestine, some 300 mm long and 3 mm wide (in a 180 mm SL specimen). This intestinal morphology is typical of a cichlid with a dominantly vegetarian, detritivorous, or omnivorous diet."

Of course if one is in the business of growing discus out for resale, then the main goal (at least in many cases) is to get the fish as large as humanly possible, in as short of time frame as humanly possible. I think that a lot of discus would have much longer lifespans if people weren't in such a rush to have 6 inch fish. A poll taken a few yrs back on simplydiscus had the average lifespan of a tank raised discus at 4 yrs, which IMO is pretty sad. Jack Wattley started the beefheart craze a few decades back because it was a cheap form of protein, and the fish grew quickly. Since then a LOT of people have blindly followed his lead. I don't believe that Jack has any peer reviewed documentation that shows beefheart is an ideal amino acid (protein) source for any species of fish, let alone discus. The scientific journal linked to above pretty much clears up the myth that discus are a highly carnivorous species that require massive amounts of protein for proper growth.

[DiscusKeeper403]

I agree, and feed very little beef heart, only as a treat strictly once a month. Great article I have been telling people for ages Discus need more vegetation in their diet. Hard to get it in though in some cases.

I'll also add that I believe Stendker is on the only breeder now days that feeds only beef heart, most asian stock breeders feed a well rounded diet, at least reputable breeders.

Edited June 16, 2009 by DiscusLova

[RD.]

I'll also add that I believe Stendker is on the only breeder now days that feeds only beef heart, most asian stock breeders feed a well rounded diet, at least reputable breeders.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Not only do other well known reputable breeders (some are mentioned in the recent discus group buy thread) feed primarily beefheart, at least one of them also uses a synthetic color enhancing agent (carophyll pink ) in his beefheart mix. Another one of those reputable breeders feeds primarily frozen blood worms, which again isn't exactly what I would consider a well rounded diet, even if these primary ingredients are supplemented with vitamins etc.

[firestorm]

Feeding any kind of fish beefheart is probably not the best thing for them. I mean if you think about it, do fish eat cows in the wild? Most of the time no, with the acception of maybe pirhana's feeding off a sick or dead cow that falls in the water lol. I stopped feeding any of my fish beefheart when they stopped making the frozen cubes (or at least don't sell in Canada anymore). I see so many people only feeding their discus homemade beefheart with things added to it. In my opinion that still doesn't make up a healthy diet for them. Once a week I will feed my discus the san fransisco bay brand frozen cichlid delight which contains some turkey heart, but it isn't their constant diet and it doesn't only consist of that one ingredient. I personally think most discus should be on a main staple diet of dried foods for example I give mine NLS discus pellets and hikari discus pellets along with tetramin, and some NLS flakes (mainly for cardinals), then they get only 1 feeding of frozen a night or every other night. I also think it is a good idea to mix the type of frozen foods up, I feed brine shrimp, mysis shrimp, ocean nutrition jack wattley discus formula, bloodworms, cichlid delight, and the odd time daphnia. My discus also pick at the spirulina wafers I throw in the tank for my BN plecos.

Thanks for bringing this whole thing up. I honestly don't think a large diet of beefheart is healthy for them either, and they need to have variety. I don't think discus eat the exact same foods all day every day, and certain things just don't contain the certain nutrients to help them to stay healthy. Fish too can develop nutrient deficiencies and it can affect their life span. I am glad to hear I don't feed my discus beef heart anymore after hearing the life span it can give them.

[RD.]

I'm glad to hear that, hopefully the beefheart craze is slowly being phased out.

[DiscusKeeper403]

I'll also add that I believe Stendker is on the only breeder now days that feeds only beef heart, most asian stock breeders feed a well rounded diet, at least reputable breeders.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Not only do other well known reputable breeders (some are mentioned in the recent discus group buy thread) feed primarily beefheart, at least one of them also uses a synthetic color enhancing agent (carophyll pink ) in his beefheart mix. Another one of those reputable breeders feeds primarily frozen blood worms, which again isn't exactly what I would consider a well rounded diet, even if these primary ingredients are supplemented with vitamins etc.

Which breeders are these?

[RD.]

I'm not going to 'out" anyone on a public forum. The info was supplied to me privately by the breeders themselves.

[DiscusKeeper403]

I'm not going to 'out" anyone on a public forum. The info was supplied to me privately by the breeders themselves.

Hmmm, then why say it in the first place? Primarily blood worms isn't too bad, as long as the breeder is still giving other varieties of food. Primary isn't really specific enough to say if it a good or bad thing, primarily could be very many numbers...

I know that Kenny/Forrest Discus are fed a large vairety of foods, having talked to them personally and having bought some of their fish. They readily excepted everything I threw in the tank (flakes, pellets, blood worms, brine shrimp, mysis shrimp, glass worms.) Same thing with the Jeffery Yang fish I bought. Really the only mentioning of breeders in the group orders lately.

I know with Stendker his beefheart mix is chocked full of all sorts of stuff, vegetable material and fish material along with different vitamins and minerals. Lean beefheart mix is definitley better then the straight fatty beefheart you buy at the pet store, but still, Discus fed heavily on beefheart normally last 10-15 years where as there are some reports of Discus fed on a varied diet and living between 20-30!

Edited June 19, 2009 by DiscusLova

[RD.]

Why say it in the first place? To clear up any confusion that your previous comment may have made, which I felt that I could do without naming names, and potentially affecting someones future sales.

[DiscusKeeper403]

Why say it in the first place? To clear up any confusion that your previous comment may have made, which I felt that I could do without naming names, and potentially affecting someones future sales.

Fair enough but if they told you when you asked they can't be that worried about letting the cat out of the bag. At least what I would think anyways...

[RD.]

I tend to agree with you, but I wasn't sure if it was a big deal or not (or would be made into one?) so I decided to err on the side of caution.

As far as the primarily comment, that was my wording, not theirs. Below are portions (names etc removed) of two of the emails that I received.

"WE feed them Hikari frozen blood worms"

+ (some type of vitamin supplement?)

"The main feed for discus is beef heart. In it, i mix spirulina and multivitamins for overall better health. To achieve better red colour, i mix carophyll pink into the beef heart."

As I stated previously, those aren't exactly what I would consider well rounded diets, especially when one considers the info found in the study performed in SA & linked to in my initial comment. In Heiko Bleher's Discus book vol 1. it also gives a full description of wild Discus nutrition and states that the 5 most common items eaten by discus in the wild are; detritus, vegetable matter, algae & micro algae, aquatic invertebrates, terrestrial & arboreal arthropods.

Chong et al ran a 3 month feed trial on juvenile discus (fish approx. 4.5 grams in weight) and concluded that a diet consisting of 45-50% protein, and 8% fat was ideal for optimum growth for juveniles of this species. I have no argument with those stats, and the same could be said for hundreds/thousands of ornamental species, but somehow this data has been used by certain segments of the discus camp to support their use of a high protein "beefheart" diet. WTH?

Chong et al used fish meal as the source of protein (along with casein & gelatine as binding agents) in their study, not beefheart!

BTW - I'm curious, how many people do you personally know that have fed beefheart heavily to their discus, and managed to keep the fish alive for 10+ yrs? I personally don't know any. One of the admin on simplydiscus (Al) once told me that for tank raised discus, 4-5 yrs is the average lifespan. While I understand that tank raised discus have the potential to live 10-15 yrs (or longer) in captivity, I don't believe that I would consider it normal for a fish that is heavily fed beefheart to survive that long.

I'm not saying that it can't be done, or hasn't been, just that I wouldn't consider it a typical scenario.

Edited June 19, 2009 by RD.

[DiscusKeeper403]

BTW - I'm curious, how many people do you personally know that have fed beefheart heavily to their discus, and managed to keep the fish alive for 10+ yrs? I personally don't know any. One of the admin on simplydiscus (Al) once told me that for tank raised discus, 4-5 yrs is the average lifespan. While I understand that tank raised discus have the potential to live 10-15 yrs (or longer) in captivity, I don't believe that I would consider it normal for a fish that is heavily fed beefheart to survive that long.

I'm not saying that it can't be done, or hasn't been, just that I wouldn't consider it a typical scenario.

There was a heated debate on Beefheart on another forum and someone was saying Stendker reported his Discus living on average 10-15 years, where another Discus enthusiast (can't remember then name, might have been Heiko Bleher) reported his specimens living on average 20-30. Don't really have anything to back it up I am sure if someone went digging they might be able to turn something up.

[firestorm]

I personally don't think that they will live very long by eating cows, it is not a natural diet for them and I don't think it's absolutely healthy for them. I can see someone using it as "part" of their diet as a juvenile to help them grow faster, but as the main food source I wouldn't. Not only that, some of the members on SD have to do almost daily water changes because of how badly beef heart affects water quality. I would much prefer to use something that didn't make me have to do daily water changes and I don't.

My Jeffrey Yang discus both took the foods I feed them right away, although one took a couple of days before he did start eating which is normal. They even eat the hikari and NLS pellets like crazy. I am very happy with the quality of these fish from Alex Han, and I believe they must feed these discus more than just beefheart if they took all other foods so well. I have had problems with other discus in the past eating certain foods, so it is definitely a plus to buy discus bred by a breeder who doesn't fous solely on getting them to grow as fast as they can, rather a specimen of excellent quality that isn't only going to live 4-5 years.

[RD.]

As a long time discus breeder once told me, beef + warm water = beef soup.

I would guess that most breeders get their juvies weaned on to different foods before they sell them, which would account

for even Stendker's discus eating non beefheart foods when they arrive. That, or after several days of not being fed they decide that any food is good food. lol

FYI - the main food used by Jeff Yang is beefheart.

[DiscusKeeper403]

I personally don't think that they will live very long by eating cows, it is not a natural diet for them and I don't think it's absolutely healthy for them. I can see someone using it as "part" of their diet as a juvenile to help them grow faster, but as the main food source I wouldn't. Not only that, some of the members on SD have to do almost daily water changes because of how badly beef heart affects water quality. I would much prefer to use something that didn't make me have to do daily water changes and I don't.

Yes you are right, but is flake a natural part of their diet? How about the spirulina and wheat flour and soy meal in it? To be honest I don't think much of what we feed our Discus is what they eat in the wild, if anything. I could possibly see daphnia and mosquito larve, but even then I am not sure. Beef heart can foul the water but the more you feed the more you need to do water changes anyways to be honest. Feeding 6-8 feeds of anything would require a daily water change