Equipment Necessary....

[thefishdude]

Im gathering information for a 25 gallon I have sitting here. I am interested in delving into the world of SW. However, cannot find information on what equipment would be necessary. Would a regular AquaClear 20 and a AC50 powerhead do the job? Anything here I need to worry about? I'm thinking of building a canopy for it which I hope to put in either 1 or 2 x 50W fl. lights in - would this be adequate? (2w or 4w / gallon) Anyone have any pics of a 20-30 gallon SW tank? Is there anywhere out there that lists the different types of SW options and the requirements for them? I had a brief look around canreef and other sites but there is nowhere that really simplifies for the beginner.

Lots of questions for the experts out there. Who wants to take a shot at it?

[albert_dao]

All you need is live rock, a protein skimmer and something to move the water around. SEIO powerheads come of high recommendation. Everything else is garbage.

As far as lighting goes, that depends on if you're planning a reef or not. If you are, the MINIMUM quality of lighting I would use is power compact lighting. Coralife makes a semi-affordable unit.

Anyway, here's a good link for ya:

http://reefcentral.com/modules.php?s=&name...=showpage&pid=1

That will give you much of the needed information to get started.

[thefishdude]

Very good link Albert - thanx

Iam definately interested in a reef tank - probably more interested in the coral than the fish.

As far as this PC lighting as I believe it is reffered to - Is this just a high output flourescent or are we talking something different entirely? What kind of cost would I be looking at if I could install myself?

As far as skimmers go - is this necessary as a first dive into SW (I read on some other board that it isn't), or is it something that I will regret not getting down the road? What kind of unit would be applicable (size and cost wise) for a 25 gallon tall tank (make & model) ?

Thanks again for the help

CORY

Edited December 1, 2005 by thefishdude

[albert_dao]

Very good link Albert - thanx

Iam definately interested in a reef tank - probably more interested in the coral than the fish.

As far as this PC lighting as I believe it is reffered to - Is this just a high output flourescent or are we talking something different entirely? What kind of cost would I be looking at if I could install myself?

As far as skimmers go - is this necessary as a first dive into SW (I read on some other board that it isn't), or is it something that I will regret not getting down the road? What kind of unit would be applicable (size and cost wise) for a 25 gallon tall tank (make & model) ?

Thanks again for the help

CORY

Power compact is far brigher than HO. There are retrofit kits available and they're easy to wire, but you'll need to have a box canopy and a splash shield of some sort.

Protein skimmers aren't a NECESSITY, they just happen to make life exponentially easier when keeping your tank clean.

As for skimmer models, you'll find no better hang on back skimmer than the Remora. Very slim (3" of back clearance is fine), but tall. Easy to operate, almost negligable maintanance and effective. You're looking at $200+ for one though. I sell them for $225.

There's other skimmers such as the CPR bakpak, but IMO, they're not as good and you're paying the same thing.

While I'm at it, the Coralife SuperSkimmer series is worth a note. From what I've seen, they outperform the Remora, but there's some huge drawbacks. Firstly, they are bulky. Very bulky. The powerhead driving them is the size of a softball. Next, they're very sensitive and prone to overflowing the cup if you're not on top of the unit all the time. That said though, if you are running a sump, I'd snatch one of these up over the Remora. They're far cheaper. A comparable model to the Remora is only $120.

Anyway, something of note for a beginner; you may want to consider doing a barebottom set up initially. It's far easier to keep things under control. When you have matured your system and have developed the knowledge base and confidence to chagne things up, you could then add a thin layer of aragonite to the bottom.

[thefishdude]

Anyway, something of note for a beginner; you may want to consider doing a barebottom set up initially. It's far easier to keep things under control. When you have matured your system and have developed the knowledge base and confidence to chagne things up, you could then add a thin layer of aragonite to the bottom.

Does barebottom just mean no sand? Would this include live rock? Why would this be easier? I was led to believe it was the sand that is the bio filter in a SW setup. I want to get started on a SW tank that I will be happy with in 18 months. If this means starting as barebottom that is fine, but I could also skip the $200+ skimmer. I can do water changes until I can find one on sale.

What happens when it comes time to move? After spending the next year and a half getting this tank to where I want it, If I have to move, is this going to throw me back to day 1 again? If this is the case, this project might be better left until I own a house.

Thanks again for the help

CORY

[thefishdude]

The "difficult" part of keeping a reef tank is when you also want lots of fish in it. This just does not work very well, and is not to be recommended to newbies. Rather start off with a "marginal reef" tank, with lots of live rock, a deep live sand bed substrate (both very important elements of your filtration, as well as being interesting in their own right), some "easy" soft corals, some tube worms, etc. and only a few reef compatible fish.

This was taken from your link albert - this is where I was led to believe a deep live sand bed IS the filter

SO CONFUSED

[finaddict]

corey, I would go with a shallow sand bed, sometime a dsb can trap toxic wastes-

I do not personally like the look of bare bottom! I would add a skimmer even a cheap one can be more benaficial than none at all.

Add live rocks as it helps with filtering

You can also check out the bargain finder http://www.buysell.com/

i got my salt water set up from there. I have since upgrade the lights and skimmer is on it way. But it was fine for a fowlr (fish only with live rock) i think there is a 70g salt water set up in the buy/sell right now.

When we moved my 60g set up we drained water first, transported water from tank across city then put in pails with heater, next moved the fish/ tank/hardware

Started adding water , plugged in filter,added fish. it took a few hours but with lots of rubbermiad containers it was do able!

There is so much contradicting info sometimes you just have to have trial and error. HTH

Connie

[albert_dao]

The question of whether or not a sandbed acts as a functional biofilter is irrelevant. The real question is "why?"

Live rock is more than enough to handle all but the most overstocked of tanks. Trust me on this, I can back it all up with in-store examples.

The other issue is that sandbeds of sufficient depth to become anaerobic are also, like Connie said, a ticking timebomb. Over in the States, that might not be so much of an issue since they have such readily available access to real live sand. Sand seeded by live rock is NOT real live sand. Worms and animals coming from rock do not sift or stir sand, they merely make burrows in it and use the same burrows over and over. Real sand organism actually plow through new sand day in and day out in their search for food and shelter. This keeps the sandbed from becoming anoxic and from keeping the aragonite from becoming a big block of concrete.

If you have some time, sign up on the RC board and do a search for threads by a member named "Bomber". That should give you a lot of insight into why barebottom work. I'd do it for you myself, but the RC search function is disabled whenever they have high server load. I'll look later tonight if possible.

If anything, you could just stop by and I'll explain it more thoroughly with in-store examples.

Edited December 1, 2005 by albert_dao

[thefishdude]

Thanks for the help Albert and Connie

I suppose just like everything else in this hobby, there are no hard and fast rules. Some people prefer using X theory and others seem to only have success using Y theory. I am going to have to do some hard research here tonight into just what I want and start looking for used equipment. I really appreciate your invitation to come in store for explanation Albert but I am currently sans vehicle and no where near your location. If this changes in the next little while I will come in for a chat.

I guess that I will start by signing up to RC and have a look around. Im definately in no hurry to get started, and from what I have read thus far this will probably increase my success down the road. More questions to follow Im sure

Im on nights right now so this means lots of "research" time...

Cory

Edited December 2, 2005 by thefishdude

[BlkWolfe]

Heres a couple of the threads i think Albert was pointing to...

DSB

Bombers Starboard reef

DSB debate

"New" Ideas on DSB's

DSB or BB?

Just a warning some of these are VERY long winded

[albert_dao]

Thanks Josh!

[thefishdude]

Thanks Josh!

Yes thanks Josh...

Just a warning some of these are VERY long winded

Boy you weren't kidding :shock:

Lots of reading to keep me busy tonight

[thefishdude]

Alrighty - 3:35am

Here is a link to a tank that I really like. I have read that the clownfish is a good idea for a beginner and seems to be quite popular and readily available. However, it is everything else you see in the picture that I am hoping to achieve.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.p...rt=1&thecat=507

Would this be considered a FOWLR setup? If not what would this be called? Is there anywhere that discusses the bio cycle of a SW tank? What is "live" in the live rock and what does this do to replace the biofilter of FW tanks?

From what I have gathered through my search - barebottom with lots of flow seems the way to go. I would however like to see a thin layer of aragonite such as you mentioned Albert. Would a system such as this need a skimmer to get the process started? Could one get away with this to start: tank/salt/rock/hydrometer and add the lighting, skimmer, and aragonite once finances permit?

[albert_dao]

That's a full scale reef set up. FOWLR has no coral.

Live rock has many properties that make it "live". For starters, it has a huge internal surface area (on good quality live rock anyway), which makes it a suitable subtrate for bacteria. Secondly, it is usually encrusted with things like micro/macro algae, bryozoans, tunicates and other sessle invertabrates. Lastly, you will usually find a whole community of motile inverts on live rock such as worms, amphipods, crabs, and snails. All these factors contribute to a substrate that has a huge capacity to process organic materials in many ways a bioball could not.

High flow and thin sand are not a match. You'll end up with sand all in one corner of the tank, or worse, suspended in the water column. Another alternative is to paint the bottom white. That's what I've done at the store and it looks good.

You should prioritize the purchase of a skimmer as it is one of the most crucial pieces of equipment to running barebottom effortlessly.

I'd actually purchase in this order: Tank, salt, hydrometer, powerheads, skimmer, rock, with lights coming last.

[midgetwaiter]

Hey Corey,

Couple concepts that you can get out of those long winded (but excellent) links. I too am working nights and there isn't a lot to do atm.

Bio filters, aerobic or anaerobic are easy concepts surrounded by an amazing amount of rhetoric and hand waving. Simply put, all of these materials (rock sand, whatever) provide surface area for stuff to live on.

In freshwater systems we are only concerned with one kind of stuff, aerobic (needing oxygen) bacteria that eat nitrogen compounds like ammonia and nitrite. They turn that stuff into nitrate that we manage by water changes. The media in your filter and other surfaces in your tank provide the places for this bacteria to grow. You just need to move oxygen rich water past these bacteria and they pull the nasty compounds out of the water for you.

In saltwater systems it gets more complicated. The simple process where ammonia and nitrite get changed is still there but is a little bit more sensitive. Saltwater is more dense so we need better pumps to move water about and the bacteria involved are less efficient so we need more (about 5x) surface area for them to grow on. We also need to be more careful with this process as the creatures we want to keep don't have the ability to handle much of these compounds in the water compared to most freshwater fishes.

It is possible to keep a saltwater system just like a freshwater, relying on the aerobic process to keep everything going. You could use a nice big canister, one with more media and higher water flow and it would work but there would be some issues. We would have to do frequent water changes to manage our levels of nitrate and other dissolved organics and that would get expensive with all this salt and other additives we may be using. We also have to be much more careful matching temperatures and water parameters as some things like corals and starfish are very sensitive to rapid changes.

So we try to keep anaerobic (living without oxygen) bacteria that will eat up nitrate for us. This bacteria only lives in zones where there is little or no oxygen, to provide those zones you use a deep layer of sand or very pours rock.

This is where the deep sand beds and live rock come in. Live rock comes with the bacteria’s living on the surface (aerobic) and in little cracks and crevices within (Anaerobic) in addition to all sorts of other critters that suck up organic wastes. Live sand (which is really difficult to get around here) also comes with the bacteria we want to keep our sand bed going and other little helpful critters.

As others have pointed out deep sand beds are a little tricky. You need to have 4 or so inches of sand to create your anaerobic zone but that much sand is also going to trap little particles of food and waste where they will rot. You can't really get in there with the ole gravel vac and stir everything up but you can't really ignore it either or you get to much crud built up and you get your ticking time bomb problem. You keep that from happening by having some things like sand sifter starfish, copepods and snails that will burrow in the sand and clean up for you. It's a delicate balance and difficult to do well.

A protein skimmer helps this situation out by removing wastes and organic compounds from the water before any of this other stuff goes to work on it. The bubbles in the skimmer collect crud on their surface creating a foam called skin mate which is pushed out of the skimmer and into a cup or bucket. This allows us to have a higher bio load in the tank than we would be able to otherwise. Actually it pretty much allows us to have what is considered a normal bio load, a balanced tank without a skimmer usually looks a little bare.

Hope that makes things clearer, now for some advice.

I have a 12g nano (footprint of a 10g only taller) that has been running for about a year. I started it with a thin layer of aragonite on the bottom and a bunch of base rock arranged in a pile. It has a built in overflow / sump in the corner stocked with bio balls and ceramic rings to provide bio filtration and a sponge on the top to catch any crud. The sponge gets rinsed every couple days. There is also a powerhead on the other side of the tank for circulation. I've messed around with different lights but now I’ve got a Coralife T5 fixture on it, similar to power compacts. There is no skimmer.

To start off I used bio media from an established tanks and about a pond of live rock rubble spread out here and there. For 2 months I had 1 fish, a cb clown about 1 cm long. I started with 2 but one got too curious about the power head. After that I added some snails, crabs and a starfish. At the 6 month mark I stated adding a few coral frags here and there, it's working okay. I have a pipe organ, bunch of star polyps, some zoos, a huge mushroom and devil's hand that are all doing well. I've never had any detectable nitrate level, I change a couple of gallons of water every month. I even had a condy anemone die off on me while I was out of town, bit of an algae outbreak but no problems per say, which I think is an accomplishment with such a small tank.

So it can be done without all the fancy junk, you just need patience and a little luck. You would want to use a bigger HOB like an AC 110 or maybe a canister of some type. Keep in mind that you are going to have to make some compromises, there are things you won't be able to keep. If you think you'll be happy with Zoos and shrooms for a while you could get setup in couple days. I have a couple things I could donate to the cause (some rock, an air driven skimmer), if you want to stop over some time I can show you a couple things too. Even my new bare bottom tank with all the fancy junk on it.