RD.

Be careful, that's an administrator you guys are talking about. :baby:

If I lived in Cow Town, I would have gladly taken part in this meet. Sorry I can't be there, have fun!

BTW - the fact that this topic was raised by Rahim on Sept 22nd, and not a single moderator on this site appeared to know why this was happening, and not a single person from admin was forthcoming with a reason, until Oct 8th, is rather telling. :ml: Edited to say ........... Thanks for bringing the edit feature back. :ml:

Jay - with all due respect, that's a fairly lame azz excuse for removing the edit option for us 'regular' members. As a former moderator on the largest cichlid site on the net (with over 17,000 members), I can assure you the only people you are punishing is the members of this site who don't post crap. The reality is that quite often having an edit option allows someone to remove their own crap, once they stop & read their comment. (that was posted in the heat of the moment) This isn't grade school, and if the odd twerp posts a few flames, BIG deal, there's mods on here damn near all day (and night) and I'm sure the comment can be removed, and a PM sent to the violator with out the rest of this sites membership being punished. Seriously guys, rethink this one.

Just a quick update. I've been using ClorAm-X since Since Sept 26th, and it indeed does exactly what it says it will do. Even 2 day old Tang fry had no adverse reactions to the ClorAm-X, during a 30% water change in a 29 gallon tank. The dry powder formulas (Seachem Prime also makes one called SAFE) will save you a TON of money over the long haul.

Labidochromis caeruleus (line bred, as well as F1) Synodontis petricola Neolamprologus brichardi Tropheus duboisi 'Maswa'

I agree, but genetic diversity can be achieved by a single outcross with 'any' unrelated fish. I understand the point you're trying to get across, and I agree with it. One should always use top quality, unrelated breeders, in 'any' breeding set up. With regards to using wild caught fish in your breeding operation...... Mark from Cichliddomain said it best in the following comment posted on another forum:

No edit showing here either. :mad:

Hey Big Rusty - how's it hanging? You'll notice I wasn't pointing any fingers, I assumed that's what happened, and it's not suprising. The fact is, they were quality fish, just not exactly what the breeder stated they were. No hate mail please. :ph43r: Albert - correct, WC fish don't come with papers, but if you're directly importing WC fish, there will be some sort of documentation. BTW - which importer does Gold Aquariums use for their WC Malawis? Oxy - some good points, but certianly not true for all species. (you'll notice this was posted in the African Cichlids folder) Some of these "collection areas" on Lake Malawi are rather large, and involve several miles of property. You're correct, very few cichlids migrate, but unlike the inbreeding that takes place in an aquarium setting I doubt you'll find too many brothers & sisters mating with each other in the wild. Not entirely true. While in 'many' cases F2 are most likely inbred F1's, the fry from WC fish (F1's), would only be inbred if their parents were both related. When collecting fish in the wild, the chances of the divers coming up with a 'group' of fish all related, are slim to none. With certain species such as Labidochromis caeruleus, catching a group of fish in the lake, that were all related, would be like winning the lottery. But, even if some of the fish were directly related (brother/sister, mother/father), the fish that are caught are then taken to a holding facility, where they are placed in large vats where the fish are all kept according to species, with a single species and sex in each vat, though I've been told they do get mixed up. They are exported only after being in glass tanks in a main fish house under observation for a week to make sure that only the best are shipped. (this info supplied by African_Fever) So it isn't just a matter of simply catching a group of fish, placing them in a storage tub, then marking them for export as the same 'group'. Some of these concrete storage vats are huge, and I imagine the fish are packed in pretty good. The fish being exported would be mixed up pretty good from the get go, then caught at random for the various importers. In & around the Rift Lakes, the natives are so poor that they simply don't have the means to be breeding fish, let alone raising them to a marketable size. I'm sure Kyle could expand on this, as he's been in the boats & on dives with the natives, but I think it's safe to say this would never happen on any of the Rift Lakes. That's not to say that there aren't "exporters" who are doing this, but that's where ones reputation comes into play. The fact is that in most cases WC Africans produce gentically diverse offspring with high vigor. Inbreeding is not usually a problem in fish (including WC fish), unless it's done repeatedly. What you then have is alleles for all traits becoming more homozygous, including all undesirable recessive traits. This is why highly inbred individuals tend to have less vigor, or become genetically defective. This isn't to say that WC fish are superior to F1 stock, and as far as that goes I would personally rather have two unrelated groups of F1 fish as my breeding stock, than WC fish. Less costly, less chance of them carrying disease, in the case of most Africans, less aggression, and a better ability to cope with the stress of being kept in an aquarium setting.

Whenever possible, crossing geographical variants should also be avoided. The reason is this ..... some species of fish have already virtually disappeared from their wild homes (some of the Lake Victoria cichlid species are a prime example), and as custodians of these fish, we need to keep the lines as pure as possible, or risk losing them forever. With some of the more popular species that have been raised in massive fish, farms this is already difficult to achieve (unless purchasing wild caught fish), but with many species, retaining pure lines is still easily accomplished. If you just want pretty, interesting, or unusual, fish for your own enjoyment, that's ok, but one shouldn't be selling the offspring of these mixes, or giving them away. At some point down the road these fish will enter the retail market, and within several years can pretty much ruin a species.

Amen to that ....

I would drop the 10 Pseudotropheus spec."Zebra Long Pelvic" from the list. IMO 37 mbuna of the first 3 groups is more than enough fish for a 4ft tank.

All fish have a lineage, including all of the fish found in the Rift Lakes. The only important thing one needs to know is are all of the F0's ancestors wild, or were they pond/tank or aquarium born & raised. The only simple solution is to make damn sure you're buying from a trusted source, and don't believe everything you hear/read.

Yes, lots of people have various plants in their African tanks, it basically comes down to what you like in a tank set up. Keep in mind that some species of cichlids are more prone to ripping up and/or digging up plants.

The larger the tank, the more options you'll have. I guess it would be best to know what kind of African cichlid set up you were thinking about?

You might want to look into some of the Tanganyikan shell dwelling species. If it's a 20 long, a pair of Neolamprologus brichardi would also work. IMO a 20 gallon tank is too small to house Lake Malawi mbuna, or haps/peacocks.

This subject is something that has been troubling me for some time. Over the past few years I see a lot of people advertising their fish as WC, or F1, when in some instances I highly doubt this is the case. A recent example was some 'supposed' F1 Iodotropheus sprengae that I purchased from a local person. I knew where he had purchased the fish (a breeder in MB), but I also knew that this was a species that was seldom exported from Lake Malawi. When I eventually contacted the breeder I was informed they were in fact F2, not F1 as advertised to me. No BIG surprise, but once again confirmed in my mind that these terms are often tossed around with very little proof of the fishes actual generation status. When you buy a purebred show dog, it comes with registration papers showing the lineage of that particular dog, with fish you usually get nothing more than the word of the breeder/owner. This isn't to say that people selling WC or F1 fish are attempting to scam everyone, but in many cases I think that some of these people are simply misinformed. IMO if one is asked to drop some serious coin on fish advertised as WC, then the seller of said fish ought to be able to provide some documentation showing the importation of these fish. To the best of my knowledge the only Cdn importer currently doing this is the CRLCA. http://www.crlca.com/fishsite/membership.html Then we have the situation of 'some' exporters who raise & breed fish in ponds, and then export them as WC fish, when in fact they are not. Perhaps genetically speaking there isn't a huge difference between WC & F1, but there certainly is in the price tag. In some cases the cost for WC is as much as 10X the price of the same fish with an F1 status. Also, if one is looking at setting up a serious breeding program, obviously the idea is to have unrelated breeders, not a group of F1 brothers/sisters as your breeding stock. From my understanding from someone who spent several months working with Stuart Grant on Lake Malawi, this does not take place on Lake Malawi, but from what I've been told by another source it does take place on Lake Tanganyika. See ACA publication BB issue #222, Titled: Is the F0 Classification a Fallacy?, By Leigh Kissane, page 18. The following info was currently sent to me from someone who has been keeping & breeding Africans for the past 25 years. I've X'd out the exporters name to avoid any legal repercussions. Just something to think about the next time you're considering dropping some serious coin on some "wild caught" fish.

I agree 100%. No need for a bigger tank, but up the water changes to 4 times a week & you'll see some major improvements in growth. Stocking densities can affect the overall growth of your fry, but usually this isn't a problem unless you attempt to cram 100's of fry/juvies in a very small tank. BBS are a great starter food, and once the fry get a bit bigger try some Cyclop-Eeze. Jack Whattley (the Discus guru) did an experiment where he used a very small tank but performed large daily water changes, and a larger tank with fewer water changes. The fry in the smaller tank grew faster than the ones in the bigger tank. Most likely this is related to the pheromone/hormone build up in the water, as well as nitrate levels. I've also read where smaller tanks help reduce expended energy (which could be used for growth) by limiting the amount of space the fry have to swim in search of food. Here's a comment posted by someone on another forum that I know (and respect), about a friend of his who was having a difficult time with growth rates (as well as survival) of his fry:

BTW - the unidentified fish appears to be a Pundamilia nyererei from Lake Victoria.

Just in case your hubby pops in. Someone once asked me about how much food they should feed their cichlids, and this was my response. Feed amounts is something that best comes with experience, and is difficult to explain, but I'll take a shot at it. Imagine that your fishes stomach is approx the size of their eye, then imagine the food you are feeding expands 2-3 times when it takes on tank water, or fluids from their stomach. Truth is fish need very little food to survive, and feeding too much food is far more common with new fish owners. Go easy & watch your fish closely for a few months. If they don't show any growth in 2-3 months, increase the amount, if they seem to be growing a lot, ease up a bit on the feedings. It's far better to feed a little less, than a little too much, and Cichlids act as though they are *always* starving, so don't let them fool you. Not very scientific, but I hope that helps. I also want to add that 'holding' females can survive for 3-4 weeks (sometimes even longer) with no food, and I know many people who go away for a few days & leave their fish with no food while they're gone. The fish do not look any worse for wear when they return. Hope that helps.

frybaby ...... I mean this in only a respectful way, so I hope you accept my advice in the manner it's being offered ....... your hubby is feeding your fish far too much food, and their obesity will lead to a premature death. Here's a pic of my largest lab, which is two years old & 4".

Melafix will cause some light foaming (not much in my experience, in fresh water tanks), it does have an odor, which seems a given, it smells like eucalyptus, and I have never noticed any fish acting lethargic, or listless. On that note, when using *any* form of medication one should maintain very good surface agitation to insure good oxygen exchange. As far as mortality, I have never experienced Melafix to cause any mortalities, nor have I ever read anything but positive experiences with this product. It's probably one of the most common medications used to treat for wounds & abrasions. A reivew on Melafix: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/melafix.php It's also important not to use too much of this product when treating a tank. One should take into account the "exact" tank volume minus the substrate, rocks, etc. ... ie a 55 gallon tank holds approx 40 gallons of actual water once you take into account the substrate & decore. This write up explains it in more detail, and also mentions the foaming. http://www.fishjunkies.com/Medications/melafix.php This article explains how much water you really have in your tank, which is something often overlooked when medicating a tank. http://www.bestfish.com/tips/052198.html The cheapest way to purchase this product is to get the Pond Care formula. Note that it is a stronger solution than the regular formula, 5% vs 1% in the regular formula. Having been a former moderator on C-F in the Illness, Health & Nutrition section of that site, I can only say that I have read scores of positive experiences with this product, and not a single negative one. I know people that have been using it for years to treat wounds & abrasions (common occurences in some of the African species) and they have nothing but praise for Melafix.

How old is that yellow lab, and what do you feed it? Bubba looks like he's about to explode!

Ok, thanks Mike. Your tanks all look so great I was hoping to see yet another work of art.

Hey Mike, any chance we can see a pic of your brichardi tank?