My Fish don't like NLS...

[Go4Long]

well since I really got my 96 up and hummin I've tried to switch over to exclusively NLS for the last week. Problem is that I've noticed some of the fish getting significantly skinnier and some of the fish not being overly interested at feeding time, so last night I dropped some of the old tropical flake food in the tank after the nls and it was a whole different picture, I closed the lid on the tank cus I thought one of em was gonna jump right out of the water. The fish that really don't seem interested in the NLS are my electric yellows and the red empress, but basically all of them get pretty pumped about the flake food. Just wondering if there's a way to get them interested in the NLS, or if I should just keep feeding them a combination of NLS and some flakes for the guys that like them more.

[dunl]

If you want to switch cichlids to something, starve them until they eat it. Females hold broods for a month without eating, so they should be fine for a week of not eating or even two.

When I had cichlids and went on a trip for two weeks, I didn;t bother having anyone feed them for me. They will survive a two week period no problem.

[KevinW]

My yellow Labs love NLS. I started up a 70 gallon 2 months ago and used flakes for a few weeks before switching over to NLS. The Labs and the other africans (other than P Pulcher) swarm at the top of the tank before I start feeding.

I would try feeding only NLS as I think they will quickly come around.

[Oxquo]

I don't know if having an NLS conversation is a good choice or not, but I can only say some of my fish do and some don't. The ones that do eat it and the ones that don't eat other stuff. Hey not all people love steak and lobster. It seems like a good food but I see little difference in My NLS tank than in My Kensfish food tank. The higher protein and fat content in Kensfish food seems to work great for growth for a fraction of the price, with a mixture of frozen foods and live foods like red wrigglers I get good results, now if I can only get photography down and someone to clean My glass wouldn't hurt, at what age can a baby be trained to clean glass and do water changes? It must be good for building mechanical skills. so it will show. As for RD this is not a shot at You or NLS just a simple statement that quality fish food is a good idea for all fish regardless of brand name. This is only My opinion. My Iceberg eats Mysis, red wrigglers, gammarus and Kensfish food, I don't think he's hurting in color too much. The important thing is they eat. I do though find alot of fish go crazy for the stuff so it will work great for them. For the few that don't Try Omega maybe or NLS garlic flavor. Pellet food is easier to feed and less sloppy than some live foods or frozen stuff. Though a feeding of gammarus will make Your fish go cuckoo for coco puffs 10 times out of 10. Maybe mixing a little crazy live in with NLS will help or feed some red wrigglers or whiteworms on NLS first, maybe then they will adapt to the taste when it is just the pellet. Good luck!!!

I may try making a frozen food with NLS as well, this may be easier accepted with the jumbo fish. My Dovii quit trying to eat the small Jumbo fish pellets because they just slip out his gills but food compacted into mini ice cube trays is just the right meaty size. Even just NLS and gelatin might work for bigger critters. It beats the hassle of stuffing feeders which is messy and takes forever.

Edited October 25, 2006 by Oxquo

[Kim]

If you are trying to switch them from a flake to a pellet maybe that is the problem. Some fish just plainly prefer the flakes vs a pellet. I would try a NLS flake food and see if that helps you out.

just my opinion

Edited October 26, 2006 by Kim

[RD.]

Fish are creatures of habit, and sometimes when presented with a new 'type' of food they will initially resist the change. Having said that, I have yet to see a freshwater fish starve itself to death when food is available. It's possible, but certainly not very common. Marine fish on the other hand can be a different story, with some fish coming in too large & set in their wild ways to accept any type of commercial food. That's just a reality.

Malawi cichlids are by & large probably one of the easiest groups of fish to train to eat any type of commercial food. I suspect that most would eat cow dung if they became hungry enough.

As previously suggested, with African cichlids, simply withhold all other food until they take to their new diet.

It's really as simple as that.

On the subject of protein & fat; the percent protein listed on a fish food label doesn't always paint a true picture about the quality of the protein, only the quantity of nitrogen. The value of protein is directly related to the amino acid content. It doesn't tell you how that protein was processed, or if it's even in a form that your fish can properly utilize. Ground up shoe leather will provide protein, but unless that protein can be fully digested by your fish, the crude protein percent on a label becomes somewhat meaningless.

It always amazes me when I hear hobbyists comparing fish foods by nothing more than the sticker price. It’s simply impossible to do! In some cases, the food that appears to be more expensive is actually the better buy due to much higher digestible ingredients. Food that is higher in digestibilty, also means less waste in your tank. In that regards it's no different than dog food, with the exception that with dogs massive amounts of waste tend to stand out when there aren't any power filters picking it up. :P

With regards to fat content, according to a recent study on lipid (fat) levels used in feeds for African Cichlids that was performed at the University of Florida, fat levels over 10% were found to cause serious liver damage if used long term. The info in this report was relating to juvenile African cichlids, that were only 4 weeks old at the start of this 12-week feed trial. Even with very young fish, who require higher levels of both protein as well as fat (due to their higher metabolisms), the higher lipid (fat) content found in the feed that was used caused these young fish to develop fatty livers, within a very short period of time.

Also, from this report;

"Fatty infiltration of the liver has also been designated "the most common metabolic disturbance and most frequent cause of death in aquarium fish."

"With prolonged feeding of a high-energy, lipid rich diet, degenerative changes of the liver and death can occur unless the diet is corrected."

The connection between excessive lipids & fatty liver disease has been common knowledge in the aquaculture industry for many years, but the interesting part about this study was that it involved African Cichlids, which as far as I know is a first. This study came about after some cichlid farms in south Florida suffered from some large mortalities in both 1998 & 1999. When the dead fish were examined they showed fatty infiltration of the liver, heavy vacuolation, and severe necrosis of the liver, pancreas, and spleen.

It was suggested to the farms that they replace their feeds with one that had a lower lipid content (less than 10%) and supplement the feed with a vitamin premix. Clinical signs in the affected farms were resolved after implementation of these recommendations.

So while high protein & high fat formulas may in fact promote significant growth in fish, it can also lead to premature death. Each hobbyist will have to decide which criteria is more important to them, fast growth, or possibly the premature demise of their fish.

They also compared the nutritional aspects between pellets and flakes in the study above, with pellets being more nutrient dense, and more stable in water.

NLS also makes flake food, but I personally never recommend it for fish over 2-3" in size.

New Life also makes pellets up to 7.5 mm in size, for anyone that keeps some of the larger species of fish.

HTH

[Oxquo]

Good to know about the 7.5mm pellet What is it listed under? the biggest I saw was the Jumbo fish pellet. even if I had to stuff one inside a feeder it may be an interesting addition to My dovii's diet. Although now as You said, he may be a creature of habit and reject pellet alone altogether.

You are absolutely right about added useless ingredients. Added fats and proteins for no reason. Many foods are non digestable. NLS certainly meets this standard and I find the feces breaks down better, not so stringy that is to say. It is a really good food for fish that like it, they really do go nuts for it......

Nevermind, I just saw the extra large fish formula.

Edited October 26, 2006 by Oxquo

[edmguy]

i have nothing but good things to say about nls. i have african chclids and had some Red bellie Pirahnas...everything would eat nls. and go crazy for it. the growth formula is amaezing. worth every penny..............the rbp's would be very picky eaters........untill i tried the nls...........100% happy customer

[RD.]

You are absolutely right about added useless ingredients. Added fats and proteins for no reason. Many foods are non digestable.

There's the rub. Many manufacturers don't consider some of these ingredients to be useless, at least not to them.

One of the main problems with the commercial fish food industry over the past 30 years has been the padding of their foods with excessive amounts of carbohydrates. While a fish such as a Koi may be able to assimilate a larger amount of carbs, the vast majority of tropical species cannot. Those excess carbs either get stored as fat (which can eventually lead to fatty liver disease) and/or they get expelled as waste, causing excess pollution in your tank.

When you see 3 types of grain products (or by-products) listed in the top 5 ingredients on a fish food label, then it becomes pretty obvious as to the overall digestibility of the food. I could formulate a food that would show a minimum of 50% crude protein on the label, but if only half of that 50% can be assimilated by most species of fish, then the digestible protein of that food is in reality only 25%. The rest ends up as excess pollution in your tank.

All commercial foods require a binding agent such as wheat flour, without a binding agent the food would simply not hold together, but when you see a food being padded with various other carbs, such as wheat gluten meal, corn gluten meal, soybean meal, oat flour, etc, it's main purpose is to lessen the overall cost of the feed. Soy has it's place in a fish food, but like all carbs it's inclusion rate should not place it in the top 3-4 ingredients. Yes, you can boost the overall crude protein in a formula by using a large amount of soybean meal, but most species of tropical fish will simply not be able to digest a large amount of that form of protein.

Protein derived from marine sources is expensive, so many manufacturers will use high inclusion rates of plant protein to spare costs in the raw ingredients. Some manufacturers will also list the ingredients in what's often referred to as ingredient splitting. If the #1 ingredient on a label is fish, with #2 being wheat flour, and #3 being wheat gluten, exactly how much wheat is in the food, compared to the more expensive & more digestible fish protein? In many cases if you combined the two wheat products together, you'd find that by weight "wheat" would be the true main ingredient.

This is also why some manufacturers will use a large inclusion rate of crude fat in their food, again, it's to spare the overall manufacturing costs of their feed. Fat is much cheaper than marine proteins, and it's a relatively inexpensive source of energy. Using a large amount of fat in a feed ensures that the protein is never being utilized as a source of energy. The problem with these types of formulations is that they are not taking into account the longevity of the fish. Excess protein from marine sources will simply get expelled as waste, excess fat from marine sources will end up being deposited around the organs of your fish, with the liver usually taking the hardest hit. Of course if a fish suddenly dies it's not like the average hobbyist is going to have a necropsy performed to find out why his prize male breeder died prematurely.

In some ways fish food isn't all that different from dog food. There's a reason why the supermarket can sell Kibbles & Grits for the price that they do, and it all boils down to the cost that it takes to manufacture the feed.

While many people might consider AAFCO to be somewhat of a joke, at least the dog/cat food industry has some form of regulation and enforcement policies in place. The tropical fish food industry as a whole has none, and unfortunately many manufacturers take advantage of that fact.

[canucklehead]

I hear you on the big fish dilemna, my snook blows half the 6mm and 7.5mm out his gills, a 15-25mm soft pellet would be nice

[RD.]

Unfortunately there simply isn't a viable market for pellets that size.

[Oxquo]

I read You there canuckle, The best I can do there is to bind pellets into cubes in those mini ice cube trays, With a bit of gelatin they can even thaw pretty good and My bigger guys smack it all the way down. I have'nt tried the Xtra large pellets from NLS but have used 6-8 jumbo pellets in one cube. Some shredded shrimp and heart in the mix as well as they like th raw stuff alot. I didn't soak the pellets but I suppose they could be. I have to say I am very happy with the pellets not expanding like alot of the others. Over all, I'd say it beats the tedious job of stuffing feeders or gut loading feeders which is just another tank to clean. I put 6-8 pellets in each section in a tray and then added loosely a bit of heart shrimp mix and then topped the whole tray with gelatin liquid, let it set up and then freeze, cover it when You freeze it and then pop the cubes out into a good quality ziploc, I double bag for safe keeping. It works like a charm. I suppose one could do it without the meat but My guys were so fed up trying to eat just pellet that they need the extra incentive now. Now they get the nutrients of pellet with the attraction of heart and shrimp. My dovii gets 2 a day and there is very little cloud or waste that I see.