Pier Pressure Posted April 8, 2007 Report Share Posted April 8, 2007 Okay I have the strangest thing going on in my 27 gallon saltwater aquarium. On Friday, I bought a flame scallop from a LFS and some odds and ends from a guy on canreef including macro algae, birdsnest frags and a small green polyp rock. The only animal added was the scallop. The tank lights went off at 11:00 p.m. as usual and everything in there looked good. By 9:30 a.m. Saturday morning, every fish and shrimp in the tank was dead and the flame scallop was dying. Hermit crabs, snails, anemones and corals all looked okay and so did the algae. Urchin seems okay. Did water tests yesterday morning after removing the fish and seemed to have half-and-half nitrite/nitrate readings (0.3 each so not a lot) and zero ammonia. We thought we must have had a big ammonia spike overnight and proceeded with a 15% water change. After that very first 15% water change, all readings were at trace or zero but brittle stars were all over the place out of the rocks and we could not find two of the fish so we continued with three more 15% water changes throughout the last 24 hours. Salinity, PH, etc. is good and staying the same throughout. The brittle stars that were all out of the rocks yesterday appeared to be breeding - arching up off the rocks and releasing a milky substance into the tank. Today the brittle stars are back in the rocks with just the arms waving out as usual. However now this one big snail seemed to do doing some kind of love dance with another smaller snail and more milky white stuff was released while they circled each other. This is the strangest thing I have ever seen :shock: . Fish that Died - royal gramma, blue yellow tail damsel, midas blenny and blue fairy sided wrasse (false percula clown and firefish have not been found but are assumed dead). The gills on the fish found were puffy with no other signs of distress. Shrimp that Died - cleaner, camel and blood with no distinguishing features to the bodies. What seems Okay - hermit crabs, snails, anemones, brittle stars, all corals, urchin. Even the tiny little critters in the live sand are okay. Water quality has been perfect for over two months before that spike and we are completely baffled. All creatures were added two and three at a time to avoid overloading the filters. We have 30 pounds of live rock, a skimmer and a UV sterilizer running on the tank and it seems to work very well - well, it did until this. Any ideas? I feel so guilty about the fish and shrimp and cannot figure out what went wrong. An ammonia spike would not kill everyone that fast, would it? We usually change out about 25% of the water per week. And if water quality is bad why do the brittle stars and snails appear to be having an orgy? This after the 150 gallon freshwater tank sprung a leak in November and we just got it back on track. This is seeming like more work than fun lately. :cry: Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osprey Posted April 8, 2007 Report Share Posted April 8, 2007 That's awful. My sympathies. I've actually heard rumors of brittle stars spawning and killing off the tank; apparently they can release something toxic into the water when they spawn. Can't for the life of me remember where I heard that, though. So sorry for your loss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOSStile Posted April 8, 2007 Report Share Posted April 8, 2007 (edited) Sorry to hear about your loss, Karen I was doing some reading about brittle stars and mass breeding. Read this article http://www.wetwebmedia.com/brittlestarreprofaqs.htm he indicates he made some changes by adding a powerhead and his stars went crazy. Some other stuff I read says that stars can start spawning due to temp. increase (Could your heater have stuck on for a while during the night?) or physical (water current changes). No where did I find info to indicate that this brittle star release was toxic to other life. I hope you find an answer. Edited April 8, 2007 by HOSStile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pier Pressure Posted April 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2007 I read up on the mass brittle star breeding, too, and note that people who have had the spawn happen have been advised to do lots of water changes. I wonder if that could foul the water right up if you are not doing extra water changes because you are unaware it is going on? I should maybe mention it looked like we have hundreds of brittle stars already. Maybe we have an overpopulation problem? We did another 20% water change today, readings are good and everything left looks good. Even more bizarrely, the firefish just came out of a rock and HE appears to be perfectly fine. Maybe the clown will appear, too? More and more curious. We are totally baffled. Thank you for the replies so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pier Pressure Posted April 9, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2007 Oh, and Hosstile - no changes were made to water flow i.e. power filters and the temperature was the same in the morning as it was that night before. No lights on before I came to work this morning so I could not check anything out. BTW - the baby demonsoni are doing very well in their new home. At least with freshwater I have a better idea of what I am doing. People do not seem to know as much about salt - I know I sure don't! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morhua Posted April 9, 2007 Report Share Posted April 9, 2007 Sorry to hear about your loss. I studied echinoderms in university and I can’t recall learning that some species release a toxic substance during reproduction (now that’s not to say it doesn’t occur). Alternatively, my feeling on this is that there was an environmental change within your tank (e.g., the addition of the claim or other items may have resulted in the release of new/different enzymes ???). Unfortunately this change (whatever it may have been) disrupted the balance of your system and as a response some of your fish died (unfortunately) and the inverts spawned. Spawning behavior post environmental changes or when in the “face of death” is not uncommon in the aquatic environment. Some of the studies I conducted in university involved monitoring sea urchin response(s) to changes in their environment (e.g., different photoperiods, changes in salinity, etc.); the release of gametes was a common observation. I’m not certain that this is what occurred in your tank, just a thought; I hope you (or someone else) can figure what happened here. Good luck. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pier Pressure Posted April 10, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2007 That is some brilliant observation, that is. I think that makes about the most sense of anything I have seen/thought/read so far. Tonight the readings are all good and everything left in the tank looks good as well. I am finding salt a lot bigger challenge than freshwater and I guess all we can do is stay the course and see what happens. I will keep everyone updated. Thanks for the help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pier Pressure Posted April 17, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 Update: water quality is remaining good, crabs, corals, etc. are all looking good. New thought - does anyone think I might have some kind of a bad-@$$ hitchhiker who killed five of the fish and three of the shrimp in one night? Do bad-@$$ hitchhikers eat what they kill or just kill for fun? We did find the bodies and they were not ravaged. The reason I am asking is that the firefish is still alive and doing well but he seems very skittish and only comes out of his rock when I get home from work for an hour or so at feeding time. He used to be out a lot more than that and now I am thinking he might be hiding from something? I am having a hard time buying that the ammonia spiked high enough to kill overnight when the nitrite/nitrate readings were only 0.3 the next day. On my kits (and I used two of them) that is just above trace. The enzyme theory makes sense but it is impossible to be sure. I do not want to restock this tank until I am more sure of what happened. And if I do have some sort of devilish hitchhiker - how do I find him, catch him and kill him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murminator Posted April 18, 2007 Report Share Posted April 18, 2007 1st of all sorry for the loss weird things suck How long has the tank been running? sometimes when rearranging the sand gets stirred up releasing some nasties, does the sand have any hard chunks on the surface? the sand can trap a buildup of CO2 a release all at once depriving the fish of oxygen the bigger fish will die fish probably the fairy wrasse and the smaller last firefish, and having 6 fish and inverts in a 27 good chance there will be lots of CO2 HTH ....just another thought any anemonies, sea hare, cucumbers, sea apples when these die they leach of nasties that will kill a tank in a hurry usually they will go through a powerhead like meat processer or was the power out overnight? happended to me flickered overnight and the powerheads or skimmer didn't start up never looked at the tank before work and came home to a terrible stench all fish and SPS dead was not a good day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morhua Posted April 18, 2007 Report Share Posted April 18, 2007 Hmm interesting. What are you thinking/suspecting .... a mantis? Maybe my "enzyme theory" still applies in that it wasn't an enzyme that was released into your tank but a hitchhiker. Good luck with trying to identify .... whatever it might be. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pier Pressure Posted April 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2007 I have two sea apples and two anemones (white sebae and green bubble tip) that survived the crash and seem to be doing fine. Not missing any of them and they are feeding, etc. so I cannot see it being that. I think the aquarium is actually 28 gallons not that that makes much of a difference. I know I was stocked pretty heavy but water changes are 20% once a week and the tests all come in well within range. The tank has been up and running for over five months now, and I bought it from a fellow reefer here who had it up and running for about three months prior. There was minimal live rock in the tank when I bought it and we did not spike or cycle when we set the aquarium back up after moving it. See the thing is - because the firefish lived - I cannot see it as being a water quality issue. Firefish are not known for being hardy through any type of cycle and damsels are - and yet the damsel died and the firefish is fine. That is why I am starting to think hitchhiker. As I am pretty new to salt I have no idea what it could be but I am thinking evil hairy crab or something. I noticed last night that the firefish seems to be coming out of his rock a lot more but he was jumpy for a week and barely came out of the rocks at all. Enzyme theory still rocks - but what about the firefish living through it along with the anemones, sea apples, etc.? I am not going to restock for quite some time if at all. Might just watch the corals grow. It is hard to decide how much stock is too much in a saltwater setup because I do not know how much the inverts count per gallon of water, etc. Right now I am spending a lot of time researching - but this was a pretty specific event and I cannot find anything like it on any of the forums. Any light you guys can shed, or theories you can share, are all appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finaddict Posted April 18, 2007 Report Share Posted April 18, 2007 H ikaren , I am thinking hitch hiker crabs if it was a spike then usually the inverts are way more sensitive then the fish.. take a flash light at night when lights r out, and slowly shin in the rocks and see any movement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pier Pressure Posted April 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2007 Hi, Connie! You had warned me about crabs and that is exactly why my suspicions have been aroused. So the crabs just kill for fun? Kind of strange that they did not try to eat the bodies or ravage them in any way. Man, we have like 30 pounds of live rock in there. I hope it is only ONE of them. What does a person do if there are lots? Any bad @$$ crab traps on the market? Any tips or tricks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finaddict Posted April 18, 2007 Report Share Posted April 18, 2007 if you see a nasty. try and take the whole rock out, blast with a bit if fresh water and hope if falls out. shake really really hard...hahaha jk i know there is fish traps maybe google- catching bad crabs.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murminator Posted April 18, 2007 Report Share Posted April 18, 2007 (edited) if you see a nasty. try and take the whole rock out, blast with a bit if fresh water and hope if falls out.shake really really hard...hahaha jk i know there is fish traps maybe google- catching bad crabs.... It is actually better to do the opposite with really high salinity(1.035-1.040) then you don't kill off your bacteria and coraline. As for the crab idea I really cannot see it it would have to be a good sized crab to hold down a fish especially a wrasse and to kill what 4 or 5 in one night, you would see a crab that big, I think a mantis would be more plausible and mantis' will usually leave slash or spear marks on them. Could also be a large pistol shrimp they can let off a big crack shockwave that stuns a fish then they will kill more likely to eat though, and you would probably hear a mantis or pistol before this. I still think its related to the sea apples getting stressed and releasing something into the water. It is a small tank things happen fast in a small tank good and bad Edited April 18, 2007 by Murminator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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