RDFISHGUY Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 (edited) I don't know what causes chipped scales other than water quality. Some say it is caused by ph being too low some say it is caused by carbon. I can honestly say that ph is not the problem as I've had other aros in this water that were fine. I was running carbon to keep the water nice and sparkly clean. I have since removed it. Other than that I had big piece of bogwood in the tank which I removed and all other water parameters are normal nitrites 0.1mg/L and nitrates 10ppm(measured right before water change). If anyone has any information they can share as to what causes chipped scales I'd love to hear it. I tried to get in touch with a vet in Bankok but as of yet I haven't heard a reply. Currently treating with Ketapang leaves and salt for the next week then I'll remove the salt and continue the Ketapang leaf treatment until the fish gets better or I find a better treatment. It has been a rough couple of weeks for me and my fish but so far no losses and at least I'm home from work to deal with the issues at hand. Here are the pics: March 10th Edited March 10, 2009 by RDFISHGUY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williewonka Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 I don't know anything about the scales. But, if the leaves are helping I do have another bag or so that you can have if you need them. Fred Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDFISHGUY Posted March 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 The damaged anal fin has healed completely. With the chipped scales it can take months to heal even if you've figured out the cause. I'm not even sure I've done that because there isn't much research information on chipped scales. I'm definitely interested in the whatever leaves you can spare as there is plenty of info regarding the ketapang leaf as a healing agent. It is also known to strengthen the scales of bettas used to fight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boydo Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) The damaged anal fin has healed completely. With the chipped scales it can take months to heal even if you've figured out the cause. I'm not even sure I've done that because there isn't much research information on chipped scales. I'm definitely interested in the whatever leaves you can spare as there is plenty of info regarding the ketapang leaf as a healing agent. It is also known to strengthen the scales of bettas used to fight. Some salt, heat, good varied diet, aloe juice if you dare , all will work out fine.....don't stress out my friend. I have also found that although nitrates maybe low, the presence of phosphates and silica can inhibit the fish's ability to use calcium for bone skin/scale development. Ketapang is a great product for stress and increasing diet, unless used at very strong strengths which could potentially have some negative effects; the results are varied. Start with lower concentrations and try to find a sweet spot that the aro responds to( active swimming/eating) and maintain. Like you said with scale problems, even once the cause is addressed, the recovery can take months, so patience is key. Good move on removing the carbon, highly doubt the wood had anything to do with it, however now keep the tank stable and consistent. Be careful with the overseas info some is very good some not so good, we are in a different climate with very different water quality which all plays a role. You must try things and observe, and continue with what works for you and your fish. Some techniques I use are different but have been successful for my aros. Best of luck with your prized possession :thumbs: . Talk to you soon, Bret Edited March 11, 2009 by boydo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDFISHGUY Posted March 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 How do phosphorus and silica inhibit calcium usage? Do you mean phosphates? I have a bad diatom issue as well. These are linked to phosphates and to a greater extent silicates. How do you test tap water for phosphates and silicates? If you have some science to back up this claim it may be worth looking into. Eliminating phosphates and silicates would remove diatoms food source and could possibly be the cause of the chipped scales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RD. Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 I seriously doubt that has anything to do with your chipped scales, but it may all be somewhat indirectly related. Some of the reef people have ran tests on various samples of activated carbon, and noticeable amounts of phosphates have been found. You can purchase phosphate test kits, but I'm quite certain that you will (now) find your parameters to be well within the normal range. I'm guessing if you were to test for silicates you would find the same thing. I don't have diatom issues in any of my tanks, and our tap water comes from the exact same source. As far as phosphorus, it's actually a key component in proper bone skin/scale development. Deficiency signs in fish are loss of appetite, poor feed efficiency, reduced mineral deposition in scales, vertebrae and opercula, and an increase in body fat content. The bio-availability of phosphorus from various feedstuffs can vary, depending on the species of fish, which some researchers attribute to the amount of (or lack of) gastric acids the fish are able to secrete. As an example, the bio-availability of phosphorus from fishmeal is much lower in carp, than rainbow trout. I think that it's safe to assume that a carnivorous species such as an arowana would produce a fair amount of gastric acids, so proper assimilation of phosphorus shouldn't be an issue. Fish can absorb calcium via their gills directly from your tank water, so even if the diet was somewhat limited in calcium (which I don't believe it is) that too shouldn't be an issue as long as one keeps the calcium levels in balance via weekly water changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDFISHGUY Posted March 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 I would think phosphorous would be a benefit as it is a key component to building teeth and bones in people (calcium phosphate)and when combined with silicon is part of the building of connective tissue such as tendons. I did add Laguna phosphate remover to my 230 and at the same time added filter floss. I don't know which did the job but the tank cleared up after that. Why do I have diatoms and no one else in Red Deer does? If there is any connection between phosphates and carbon that could be the issue. Now that its been removed the problem should clear itself. As long as there is no problem with the water lines in my area, then water changes should remove any existing phosphates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boydo Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) RDFISHGUY Posted Yesterday, 11:42 PM How do phosphorus and silica inhibit calcium usage? Do you mean phosphates? I have a bad diatom issue as well. These are linked to phosphates and to a greater extent silicates. How do you test tap water for phosphates and silicates? If you have some science to back up this claim it may be worth looking into. Eliminating phosphates and silicates would remove diatoms food source and could possibly be the cause of the chipped scales. My apologies, phosphates is what I mean't- was a few beers into it. As for the source of the info, its from my black book of acquired info One article entitled = " An introduction to nutrition and feeding of fish" by the Fish Nutrition Research Laboratory, Dept of Animal Science, and University of Ontario. It's more intened for farming of trout/salmonids and/or captive fish. You're welcome to borrow this book anytime. Edited March 10, 2009 by boydo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDFISHGUY Posted March 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Here's a link to some information about phosphates and where they come from and how to remove them. http://freshaquarium.about.com/od/watercare/a/phosphates.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RD. Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Something interesting that keeps repeating itself when this subject comes up with reefers. "Washing frozen fish food, which is a rich source for phosphates, in a sieve after thawing reduces the input of phosphate tremendously. Also avoiding use of phosphate-rich low-grade activated carbon helps keep phosphate levels as low as possible." With regards to the link that you posted ...... The only form of phosphate that is typically added to fish foods (at least that I'm aware of?) is L-Ascorbic-2-Polyphosphate, which is simply a stable form of vitamin C that almost all modern day fish foods contain, although typically it is added as a vitamin supplement, not specifically as a preservative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDFISHGUY Posted March 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 I don't believe they are talking about the food itself but rather the decomposition of uneaten food. They simply say that it occurs as wastes are broken down. I would think uneaten food falls into this category. With the volume of water I have and the small amount of uneaten food this shouldn't be an issue. As for the washing of frozen food ... I let mine thaw under the tap so that's covered. I guess that leaves carbon as the only common thread. Its been removed so problem should be solved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RD. Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 Change Food – Phosphate is used as a preservative in flake foods. All brands are not created equal, so do your research and choose those brands that have lower phosphate levels. The comment above was what I was referring to. Seafood is known to have inorganic phosphate salts added to it as a preservative, so perhaps that's how the author became confused about flake food. All fish foods contain phosphorus, and what isn't utilized by the fish will be excreted as phosphates in the waste. Its a bit more complicated than that, but that's the short & sweet of it. Overfeeding obviously increases the total phosphate levels in the aquarium, but unless one is constantly overfeeding by massive amounts, in a freshwater set up this won't cause any serious problems, and is easily resolved by regular water changes & filter cleaning. Foods with high ash content (over 10%) will contribute more phosphates which are typically caused by excess bones, scales, and shells. Raw ingredients that originate from plant matter (such as kelp) are also very high in mineral content, and will also add to the overall ash content, and if used in excess will also ultimately increase the phosphate levels in your tank. It all boils down to digestibility of the food, and how much of these substances are being fully assimilated by your fish. In Bret's example, that being a commercial application, things become slightly more complicated as you're talking about thousands of fish being kept in fairly cramped quarters, typically fed lower grade (less digestible) feed, where the total waste output is extreme. Even with a constant supply of fresh water things can get out of balance very quickly if one doesn't closely monitor the amount of feed/waste, and the water parameters. Many people consider carbon and/or carbon dust to be potential causes of hole in the head in various species, as well as chipped scales in aros, although to date there doesn't appear to be any real hard data out there to support the claims. I'm still on the fence over the whole issue, but the timing with your problem did seem to begin shortly after you went carbon crazy, so who knows? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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