Tracking Genetics

[Hippoherder]

I understand the F1, F2, F3 system. I am not sure if F3 becomes aquarium strain automatically or if we just call it aquarium strain if we can't verify lineage. I am under the impression that the "F" system is a way to track genetics. I have heard a few people mention that they thought F3's were going a bit too far into the shallow end of the pool for them... If I'm not mistaken about this (the "F' system being used to track genetics), isn't it a bit flawed? If we get a couple of F1's and their spawn is given out by the bucket load, then we have kind of made the gene pool quite a bit shallower all on our own.

I was just pondering if I imported an F-0 (wild fish), wouldn't it be better to track the line instead of how far removed from the wild? For instance, if we break it down by aquarium club, original keeper, genetic line and I imported a fish that was wild, it might be labeled as :

CAS/BB/01 (Calgary aquarium society, my initials, line 1)

This way the F-whatever status wouldn't matter, because if we had a pedigree, an F-5 pairing with varied genetics is just as valuable to promoting diversity...just a thought. With habitat and wild populations getting rapidly reduced, I think keeping track and maintaining diversity becomes that much more important in the aquarium.

[JORG]

I don't think the F system is used to track genetics. For example offspring from 2 unrelated F-1's would still be called F-2's. It is a system to track how many generations removed from the wild the fish are. After F-2 the fish are usually just labeled domestic or tank raised.

[425nm]

The "F-system" is used to track generations.

P1 (Parental 1) x P2 (Parental 2)

V

F1 "Then each individual offspring described by whatever genotype/phenotype you desire"

F1 will include any fish bred from your P1 & P2 at any date.

Your Parentals can be whatever you like. Wild-caught or aquarium bred.

F2 starts when you take one of the F1 and cross it to someone else. Whether its a back cross to one of the parents, or a incross to a sibiling, or even an outcross.\

Same idea with F3.

Out of curiousity do you remember why these people think "F3's are to shallow into the pool?"

"CAS/BB/01" could be a way you name/number each individual fish or generation of fish coupled with the F system.

The gene pool doesn't get "diluted" unless you keep incrossing your fish for several generations without sufficient outcrossing.

The F number of a fish is still important, allows you to map out the family history of your line. The map of that history is actually what a pedigree is.

[Hippoherder]

I guess i really don't see the point of the F-system then. I would keep a pedigree if i felt it was important. I know the gene pool doesn't get diluted unless there are multiple inbreedings. That is why I think pedigree is important.

The "F-system" is used to track generations.

P1 (Parental 1) x P2 (Parental 2)

V

F1 "Then each individual offspring described by whatever genotype/phenotype you desire"

F1 will include any fish bred from your P1 & P2 at any date.

Your Parentals can be whatever you like. Wild-caught or aquarium bred.

F2 starts when you take one of the F1 and cross it to someone else. Whether its a back cross to one of the parents, or a incross to a sibiling, or even an outcross.\

Same idea with F3.

Out of curiousity do you remember why these people think "F3's are to shallow into the pool?"

"CAS/BB/01" could be a way you name/number each individual fish or generation of fish coupled with the F system.

The gene pool doesn't get "diluted" unless you keep incrossing your fish for several generations without sufficient outcrossing.

The F number of a fish is still important, allows you to map out the family history of your line. The map of that history is actually what a pedigree is.

[JORG]

The "F-system" is used to track generations.

P1 (Parental 1) x P2 (Parental 2)

V

F1 "Then each individual offspring described by whatever genotype/phenotype you desire"

F1 will include any fish bred from your P1 & P2 at any date.

Your Parentals can be whatever you like. Wild-caught or aquarium bred.

F2 starts when you take one of the F1 and cross it to someone else. Whether its a back cross to one of the parents, or a incross to a sibiling, or even an outcross.\

Same idea with F3.

Out of curiousity do you remember why these people think "F3's are to shallow into the pool?"

"CAS/BB/01" could be a way you name/number each individual fish or generation of fish coupled with the F system.

The gene pool doesn't get "diluted" unless you keep incrossing your fish for several generations without sufficient outcrossing.

The F number of a fish is still important, allows you to map out the family history of your line. The map of that history is actually what a pedigree is.

I don't agree. Unless I have been completely misinformed the F system in aquarium fish is used to track the number of generations the fish have been removed from wild stock.

[jvision]

Technically, 425nm is right; however, we typically refer to the F numbers a generations from the wild.

[425nm]

The "F-system" is used to track generations.

P1 (Parental 1) x P2 (Parental 2)

V

F1 "Then each individual offspring described by whatever genotype/phenotype you desire"

F1 will include any fish bred from your P1 & P2 at any date.

Your Parentals can be whatever you like. Wild-caught or aquarium bred.

F2 starts when you take one of the F1 and cross it to someone else. Whether its a back cross to one of the parents, or a incross to a sibiling, or even an outcross.\

Same idea with F3.

Out of curiousity do you remember why these people think "F3's are to shallow into the pool?"

"CAS/BB/01" could be a way you name/number each individual fish or generation of fish coupled with the F system.

The gene pool doesn't get "diluted" unless you keep incrossing your fish for several generations without sufficient outcrossing.

The F number of a fish is still important, allows you to map out the family history of your line. The map of that history is actually what a pedigree is.

I don't agree. Unless I have been completely misinformed the F system in aquarium fish is used to track the number of generations the fish have been removed from wild stock.

What I outlined is what the F system is used for in regards to genetics, though perhaps not in the aquarium hobby.

Using it as a measure of distance from wild type isn't ideal as it could place too much value on wild type fish, encouraging their collection from the wild.

[Hippoherder]

So, every fish that is not bred with a parent or sibling would be an F-0?

THanks for the quick 101 on this. I've asked a few people and everyone has told me that it is tracking how far from wild caught specimens.

The "F-system" is used to track generations.

P1 (Parental 1) x P2 (Parental 2)

V

F1 "Then each individual offspring described by whatever genotype/phenotype you desire"

F1 will include any fish bred from your P1 & P2 at any date.

Your Parentals can be whatever you like. Wild-caught or aquarium bred.

F2 starts when you take one of the F1 and cross it to someone else. Whether its a back cross to one of the parents, or a incross to a sibiling, or even an outcross.\

Same idea with F3.

Out of curiousity do you remember why these people think "F3's are to shallow into the pool?"

"CAS/BB/01" could be a way you name/number each individual fish or generation of fish coupled with the F system.

The gene pool doesn't get "diluted" unless you keep incrossing your fish for several generations without sufficient outcrossing.

The F number of a fish is still important, allows you to map out the family history of your line. The map of that history is actually what a pedigree is.

[jvision]

In the aquarium hobby, it is typically implied that the F number is the generational gap from te wild.

It could also be used in a way similar to te other tracking method you mentioned. For example, if you get a pair of guppies from a world renowned breeder, and you want to let peoe know the purity of their strain, you could say that the parents are F0 from Big Breeder, the kids you get from them would be F1 from Big Breeder, etc.

[Hippoherder]

Thanks, that clears things up a bit. If I ever get seahorses breeding I will go with a more complicated structure. I guess I will go with a more complicated structure for anything I get that has a clearly defined genetic line.

In the aquarium hobby, it is typically implied that the F number is the generational gap from te wild.

It could also be used in a way similar to te other tracking method you mentioned. For example, if you get a pair of guppies from a world renowned breeder, and you want to let peoe know the purity of their strain, you could say that the parents are F0 from Big Breeder, the kids you get from them would be F1 from Big Breeder, etc.

[jvision]

Just make sure that your new structure is clear for others to follow if you're going to be selling the offspring.