Yellow labs

[Troy]

Hey guys,

I have a question about some Yellow labs I traded for from a friend.

I have had these labs since they were fry they are now juveniles and not yet adult size but it is a very large group of 30- 3-inch males and females.

They are a brilliant yellow with strong black lines in there fins... the thing is some of the males have black & gray in there jaws lines over there mouths, lines between there eyes, I have one that is almost like a peacock in that his face is all gray/black like a beard.

This is on about 8 or 9 males to varying degrees the rest look like normal labs all yellow. They are housed in a 40gal with 10 julidochromis Regani. The tank has an AC500 and an air-stone; I do weekly 50% water changes.

Before you all start to ask no I do not have a camera yet, so I cannot post a picture I am wondering if this is dietary or from the tank... they scrape off algae from the rocks and glass. Are they lacking something? I use about 6 commercial foods along with frozen brine shrimp and romaine lettuce a few times per month.

I do not think this is genetic as I saw the parents and they were normal this colony of 30 labs is from two females that spawned at the same time in the same tank from the same male. They were in a species only tank, (no chance of a hybrid) anyone have an idea were this black face comes from?

[albert_dao]

It may actually be genetic. Keep in mind that until recently, no new Electric Yellows have been shipped out of the lake since the first bunch entered the hobby (forever ago).

Your abberant markings may be genetic throwbacks stemming from this lack of diversity in the gene pool. There was a big debate about this on cichlid forums last year. I'll find the link when I get back home for you.

[Troy]

Broods usually number about 15 - 20 fry, with brooding periods lasting typically 28 days.

[Nyasa]

Hi Troy,

They are definitely L. caeruleus. I have seen many males with dark beards and moustaches. :ph43r: I have one such male myself. Not sure if these are a result of limited genetic diversity or what. Can't say I have seen it on pictures of fish from the lake.

David.

[RD.]

Light barring, as well as black moustaches, beards, etc, are perfectly normal traits in Labidochromis caeruleus, including wild caught labs.

Here's a pic of my line bred dom male lab. (with faint black moustache)

Here's a pic of the wild caught father to my F1 Labidochromis caeruleus. (I have 11 F1 juvies)

[albert_dao]

I'm starting to debate the merits of F0 (if there are any) over line bred after looking at that...

[RD.]

The merits of WC labs is quite simply, genetics.

FYI - the pic of that wild caught lab was taken sans a flash, with not the best of camera, and it was taken after a large water change so he was most likely somewhat stressed. The camera, the photographer, the lighting, etc-etc-etc can all make a huge difference in what the fish looks like via a digital image. Also, male Mbuna can get a bit narly looking as they mature, and without knowing the exact age of this fish it's impossible to know what he may have looked like in his 'prime'.

Wild caught yellow labs retail for $100 US per fish, so you need some serious customers before you spend the money to import them.

Line bred labs (in quality strains) have been bred for max color, which means soild yellow with crisp black fins, and no barring. The problem is, there are very few quality line bred strains out there, and most of the 'pet store' stock should be culled, not sold.

As to the merits of wild caught, I think Mark from Cichliddomain.com said it best in this comment........

"There are usually few if any visible differences between captive bred and wild fish although it is very common to find that the captive bred fish look superior. With Yel Labs the wilds tend to have deeper tones of yellow and the black markings are crisp, not faded.

The reasons for wild Labs being so expensive were explained very well earlier in this thread. Are wilds worth the price? That depends on what your ultimate goal is. If all you want is pretty fish then don't waste your money on wilds. If you are going to start a breeding operation then that's a different story.

I compare the breeding stock of fish to agriculture. Foundation seed is far more expensive than registered seed, which is more expensive than certified seed, which is more expensive than the grain that is sold as a commodity. Why should it cost more if the seeds all look the same? Because each generation away from the foundation tends to be more degenerated. With seed the result is lower yields and lower quality. With fish the results are usually loss of color and increased deformities or culls which equates to the same thing.....lower yields and quality."

Here's a pic of a WC lab: (he has 30 for sale at $100 US per fish)

http://www.kerrigansaquatics.com/lab_caeruleus.htm

Here's a link that shows another WC lab that Mark from cichliddomain sold a few months back. (large fish at the top of the page)

http://www.cichliddomain.com/labs.htm

Here's an F1 female that appears to be holding. IMO nice color, but again, not the intense yellow/orange you see in some of the line bred strains.

http://www.ida-may.com/image/labg1.jpg

Now here's some pics of a German line bred strain.

http://www.ida-may.com/image/lab-finnya1.jpg

http://www.ida-may.com/image/lab-finnya2.jpg

It really all boils down to what you want in your labs. Most people don't want 'dirty' fish with dark barring, but a little black around the face of males is perfectly normal in line bred males, as well as WC males.

My intention is to breed my line bred male with both the line bred females (unrelated) and to my F1 females, and see what I come up with. The end results should be fish with great color, and great genetics.

Edited August 16, 2004 by RD.

[Troy]

I never realized how common this seems to be among the current species now in the hobby. A lot of people seem to feel it is genetic (recessive gene). I have had Lab Caeruleus in so many of my tanks on and off for the past 15 years I have never noticed this before. Thanks to all those who posted and pm me and gave me links and current insight about the species... that it is common & nothing to worry about. Thanks for your time,

Cheers

[RD.]

Tom was asking me about this today, so I'm bumping this back up for him.

Although 'some' black in the face/head area is quite normal in male labs, black in the body area, or permanent dark barring, is NOT normal, and is the result of poor breeding practices. Mostly this can be traced back to the massive fish farms in Florida who breed for quantity, and not quality. The end result is that over time some of these non desirable traits have become fixed. It's also quite common to see tank raised adult yellow labs that are 6-7" long, yet in the wild they only average 3-4". IMO the large size is another undesirable trait that should be frowned upon by breeders. Some line bred strains have been bred to remove all traces of black in the face/head, but this is the result of selective breeding practices, not superior genetics.

Some people feel that "dirty water" will cause blackening of yellow labs, but this is pure nonsense. My sub dom male will show black splotchy patches on his body at times, as will one of the adult females, and my water is about as pristine as it gets, with nitrates never exceeding 10 PPM.

Also, keep in mind that this species can turn the black on & off in their anal & pelvic fins, as well as barring on their sides, just like a lot of the various other Malawi species. Stress, relative size compared to its tank mates, breeding, water parameters, can all affect how a yellow lab looks in an aquarium. Just like any other Mbuna, the dom fish of both sexes will always look the best. The nice thing about monomorphic species such as yellow labs is that both the males & females can show equally good color at all times.

Edited November 15, 2004 by RD.

[tc51]

R.D. Thanks for the bump, very interesting.

I have a couple of shots I would like you to see. I picked up all my fish from Pisces all at the same time so it's likely they came from the same line breed. But I could be wrong.

My water prems are all fine. I have seperated the dark fish from the rest.

The shape and lines of the dark fish are fine, but man, that darkening is ugly.

Tom

[tc51]

Different fish

Edited November 15, 2004 by tc51

[tc51]

Sorry posted same pic, lets try this one.

[tc51]

And this one is o.k. I purchased all these yellows at the same time, from the same place.

Thanks for looking. Tom.

Edited November 15, 2004 by tc51

[RD.]

It's impossible to know with 100% certainty if those 3 fish came from the same spawn, but it's possible. The males shown in the first two pics are pretty scary looking, but pretty much in line with what I've seen around these parts for the past few years. You don't see black in the body portion of labs in the wild, and you shouldn't see it in tank raised fish either. It's an ugly undesirable trait, that unfortunately has been fixed in many lines.

The last fish may be a female (do you know?), but that fish also appears to have weak submarginal black banding in the dorsal fin. Perhaps it's just the photo, but the dorsal fin looks off to me.

If it came from the same spawn, I wouldn't use it as a breeder either, as it will most likely carry the same allele for the dark markings, and if paired up with another fish that carries this allele, the resulting males have a strong chance of looking like the two "dirty" males shown in your post. If you have two fish with a recessive allele (gene) there is a better chance that the fry will show that recessive trait.

In order to truly judge the quality of a yellow lab, it needs to be at least 1 1/2 years old (3-4"), at which time you can see exactly what qualities it has. This doesn't mean that the fish isn't carrying any recessive genes for certain non desirable traits, but if you can pair it up with a quailty adult female, you have a good chance of having the majority of your fry turn out like the parents. If they throw a few duds, then they should be culled, not passed off to the LFS, fish auctions, etc.

People ask me what a good yellow lab should look like, and I show them the photo below. This is a rather rare shot of a trio of L. caeruleus "Lion's Cove" taken by Ad Konings.

When buying juvies it's impossible to know what they will turn out like until they gain some size & mature, but if you can get a group that look close to the wild trio shown above, then at least you're off to a good start.

[Troy]

Here is a picture of Two males and a holding female from one of my tanks.