vic622 Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 (edited) Hi All, After reading a bit about plant's O2/CO2 cycle, I was wondering if there would be any benefit to cycling when I add the CO2 from my DIY rig? Would there be any benefit to leaving it off during the day, and turning it on at night? Would I be risking having an exploding 2L bottle of mush all over the place? I have it going into the tank through the AquaClear powerhead. Edited March 6, 2006 by vic622 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golfnut Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 I just plug it in and forget about it. Refill when necessary... I have never had problems. Simple DIY with usually a stop valve to revent any siphoning, but that's it. Cheers, Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milan Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 (edited) Hello Vic and welcome to the board! Most people do not turn off their DIY CO2 over night. There is very little danger it would harm your fish, considering the amount of gas produced in such way. I would say if there is very little plant bio mass, surface agitation is next to nothing, and bubbling rates of CO2 are consistently high (say over 1-2 bbl/sec), your fish may start showing stress from the lack of O2. On the other hand, if you wish to minimize the amount of dissolved CO2 out of the photo period, the best way to do this is to use your powerhead on a timer together with your lights. Shutting off the CO2 line from the fermenter in the same fashion as with pressurized systems (solenoid valve or manually) may result in what your concern is. You may also want to monitor the CO2 level in your tank by measuring pH and KH parameters. To calculate the CO2 level, you can either use the following formula CO2 = 3*KH*10^(7-pH), or this table http://www.aquabotanic.com/charts.htm Hope this helps ... Edited February 7, 2006 by Milan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgmac Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 Hi Vic, There would be no benefit to turning off your co2 during the day, because that is when your lights are on and the co2 is used up by the plants, during photosynthesis. Definately get a check valve on your co2 rig, so like Golfnut says, you won't have your tank water drain out onto the floor. Post all perameters of your set up, so the gurus on this board can chime in and really help you out. Tank size, plant mass, amt of lighting, etc. :beer: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvision Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 I bubble DIY CO2 into the intake of a powerhead. Like Milan mentioned, the powerhead is plugged into the timer with the lights. During the day, there is a fine mist of CO2 being distributed throughout the tank, and during the night, the CO2 just bubbles out w/o being dissolved into the tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vic622 Posted February 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 Hi Vic, ... Post all perameters of your set up, so the gurus on this board can chime in and really help you out. Tank size, plant mass, amt of lighting, etc.  :beer: Hi Convict, The planted tank parameters are: ~ +30gal Setup 2 weeks ago water= - 0ppm ammonia & nitrites, very clear, no smells - haven't checked pH or nitrates, yet On setup= - 1/2 cycled water + 1/2 new water DIY CO2 - started yesterday gentle bubbles out powerhead Filters= - 1xWhisper triad 2000 as biological - 1xWhisper triad 2000 as mechanical - 1xAquaclear 201 Powerhead with quick filter Heater= - 1x125w jager ~ 80F Lights= - 50 watts total on 12hrs/day Substrate= - flourite+gravel & gravel layers abt 1.5" deep each Plants= - 2x small Cryptocoryne wendtii ''green'' - 3x 4" Green Cabomba Cabomba Carolina - 4x 6-8" Hygrophilia costata - 1 bunch Java Moss 2x3x4" - 6 small groups Salvinia natana - 6x 8" Water wisteria - 8 x 8-10" Vallisneria americana (gigantea) - 1x 2" Java fern Fish=all about 1.5-2" - 6x Golden Killifish - 6x Dwarf neon rainbowfish - 10x Serpae tetra - 4x Pearl Gourami - 4x Burmese loach - 3x Chinese algae eaters - 4x Red flower shrimp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milan Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 (edited) Everything looks fine. I believe by "cycled water" you used to set up this tank, you probably meant water from another (cycled) tank ... Right? Back to your original question, you will need pH and KH tests to find out how are you doing on CO2 ... Are you using any fertilizers? Edited February 8, 2006 by Milan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vic622 Posted February 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 Everything looks fine. I believe by "cycled water" you used to set up this tank, you probably meant water from another (cycled) tank ... Right? Back to your original question, you will need pH and KH tests to find out how are you doing on CO2 ... Are you using any fertilizers? Hi Milan, Yeah, 1/2 the water came from an established tank. I have never had a tank be this stable from the get go, so I figure I must have done something right this time, for a change Who makes a good pH test kit, and how precise should I be reading? I take it for my purposes that a pH meter would probably be a bit of overkill ... As to fertilizers, so far I've just got the flourite in the gravel - I know my houseplants like fertilizer, but how much/how often do we need it in the tanks? I haven't used any before, but I've never had a tank this densely planted, either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvision Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 Lots of plants is a good start - that's why things are stable. For fertilization read the pinned thread - there are a few ways to go about it. I prefer the Estimative Index (EI) b/c I don't really want to be testing all the time. I dose every day, but then to a big (50%+) WC each week. Sounds like you're off to a good start! :thumbs: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milan Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 (edited) Vic, I just noticed you have a low lights (1.7W/g) setup. With this, you are in the territory of Diana Walstad's, or Tom Barr's non CO2 methods. Perhaps, closer to Tom Barr's, since Diana calls for soil substrates. Although it does not hurt to inject CO2, you don't have to bother with it. Under low lights and no CO2, your plants will grow at significantly slower rate, but they will still grow healthy. This have some advantages too ... Less pruning, next to no water changes, very little, or no fertilizers dosing ... As far as fertilization goes, most of nutrients are provided by fish and food waste and all you have to add in small quantities is some Potassium (K) and trace elements (TE). Most of commercial stuff is formulated this way (TMG, Seachem Flourish, ...), and considering the usage, it is not expensive. However, you will need to verify that enough macronutrients (namely NO3 and PO4) are coming from organic source. If this is not the case (most likely it is), you may have to supplement them by adding small amounts of KNO3 and KH2PO4 on weekly basis. You will need NO3 and PO4 tests. Most people use either Nutrafin or Aquarium Pharmaceuticals brands. If you decide to upgrade your lights (>2W/g), then the story becomes diferent, and we can talk about some other methods, such as EI or PPS which call for CO2 enrichment ... Edited February 8, 2006 by Milan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanker Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 I'm going to stand up and point a big waggling finger here and say "You have HOW many fish?!?!?" I count 34 (slight overstock, anyone?)... that's 68 gills trying to suck O2 out of a tank all night while competing with the plants. That's also 68 gills creating CO2 all day... You may want to look into O2 injection! And where Milan says "next to no water changes" he probably meant to say "reasonable water changes" as your tank, no matter the filtration and plants, will probably still overpower itself with nitrates. I had half as many fish, most were half the size of yours, in a tank with three times as many plants and a third more water and I had to do a 30% w/c every two weeks to keep nitrates in check. There seems to be a little more focus on the plants side in here, and I just wanted to toss up a flag and say "watch out for your fish, too... you've got on hell of a big bioload there." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vic622 Posted February 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2006 (edited) ... And where Milan says "next to no water changes" he probably meant to say "reasonable water changes" as your tank, no matter the filtration and plants, will probably still overpower itself with nitrates. I had half as many fish, most were half the size of yours, in a tank with three times as many plants and a third more water and I had to do a 30% w/c every two weeks to keep nitrates in check ... Hi Tanker, I'm still a bit of neophyte, but I was planning (and am doing) incremental changes of 1/2-2/3 total vol. per week - roughly 7g every 2-3 days to address this before it becomes a problem. The incremental changes are to minimize the shock potential - both to the fish and the biological system, while still turning over enough total volume/week to prevent the nitrates from building. One of the benefits of this being a small(er) tank is that the ratio between %volume and real volume is high, in other words I achieve more "effective" changes while having to move less water in gallons or 5gal pails I'm not expecting this to be a "closed system" and I do expect it to be fairly high maintenance. Whadda ya think? If I'm on the wrong track here, I'd appreciate knowing before I crash the system and kill too many fish. Edited February 9, 2006 by vic622 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vic622 Posted February 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2006 (edited) Hi Milan, Wow, lots to contemplate, here - but thinking is good I was looking at the light setup and thinking this may need to be bumped up. This also goes to Tanker's observations about fish load. I think I may need to up the total watts, if for no other reason than to increase the O2 output from the plants. I am noticing a heat problem. While I have the heater turned down to 76F, I am still getting significant heating at the top of the tank, and the temparature reads in the 80F range. How do you solve this when you up the ratio to 2.0 or greater without turning the tank into a sauna? In the interim, I will be turning down/off the CO2 until I get a better reading on the tank. Assuming (for the moment) that I don't up the lighting, will the Flourite in the substrate "not" provide all the needed elementals (K & TE), or is there still a need to the liquids? Is this because the substrate is inherently "weak" (either does not have the necessary elementals to start with or they are not available to the plants in the required quantities) or is it to prevent it from becoming (overly) weakened by the loads the plants will place upon it? How do I "... verify that enough macronutrients (namely NO3 and PO4) are coming from organic source..."? Is this where my nitrate & phospate testing come into play? Edited February 9, 2006 by vic622 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vic Posted February 9, 2006 Report Share Posted February 9, 2006 (edited) With all that water changing you may want to buy a Python, or two! Cheers; Edited February 9, 2006 by vic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milan Posted February 9, 2006 Report Share Posted February 9, 2006 Tanker has a good point ... In your case the fish load is too high. Rule of thumb is 1" of fish per 1 gallon of tank volume. If your tank is not overstocked, have enough plant biomass, under low (normal) lights condition and no CO2 added, you may literally run your tank without any water change. Of course, if everything is in balance, meaning NO3 and PO4 are not on the rise over time ... I think I may need to up the total watts, if for no other reason than to increase the O2 output from the plants. Vic, I'm not sure why do you think you have an O2 problem? Is your fish gasping for air at the surface? If yes, how sure are you it's a lack of O2, and not perhaps presence of ammonia? Higher lights will not give you more oxygen. You may get some pearling, but that's very little. Most of O2 comes from water surface. Surface agitation helps. You can run an air pump too ... Bear in mind that light is the "driver" of plants metabolism and with it increased come all kinds of requirements, beginning with CO2, more aggressive fertilization, frequent/massive water changes and so on ... Lights are not cheap, neither is CO2, regardless of DIY or pressurized type ... Assuming (for the moment) that I don't up the lighting, will the Flourite in the substrate "not" provide all the needed elementals (K & TE), or is there still a need to the liquids? As far as I know Flourite is enriched with micros (TE). No macros (N, P, K). You still need to add at least Potassium. Micros you can not overdose by adding them thru some commercial fert. How do I "... verify that enough macronutrients (namely NO3 and PO4) are coming from organic source..."? Is this where my nitrate & phosphate testing come into play? Yes, there are tests for NO3 and PO4 ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.