water changes in a planted tank

[winterman]

Sorry if this is the wrong spot but it was the only place really mentioning undergravel filtration

I am a newbee to the fresh aquatic enviroment and this site. It have been 15 years since we really did anything with aquariums with the exception to a small community tank for the kids.

We just got a 60 gallon tank (48 X 12 X 21) and Yes I know my lighting is not sufficient, rather sucks, original canopy lights (2 @18" bulbs) but plan to upgrand when we get a chance to afford it.

The real question is to get the substrate set up properly first. The old school thought was to use undergravel filtration with a fine gravel and powerheads (Kept from years ago very high end german design at time). The external filters would be an EHIEM 2017 and a Maxium 350 if needed. I am seeing the tanks and pet stores saying that this is not the way to go and am willing to just leave it out and use a sand and special plant gravel combination.

Could some one give a guided "expert opinion" on what is the best way to go for a planted tank?

Thanks

[jvision]

I think the school of thought behind the UGF in a planted tank was getting something with a high Cation Exchange Capacity (mulm) around the plants roots. This is where the ferts are held so the plants can take them up through the root (as opposed to through green tissue above the substrate). Now, many people use a special substrate - often clay based - to get the CEC. This same effect can be acheived by having a layer of mulm or peat under your substrate - way cheaper than commercial substrates. All you need is about 1/4".

Your canister filter will be fine - I ran a heavily planted 90 gal using just an XP3 for years and never had any issues.

[fleshgear]

If you have plants in your tank, do you have to do water changes as often as if you didn't?

again i'm full of beginner questions

maniac

depending on your tank setup, ie plants, fish, filters, light, ferts, size of the tank, in some cases you do not have to change the water as much as if it was not planted. i have many planted tanks and some need the water change every week or two. and some can go months without a water change, only a top up. and the filter goes for even longer without cleaning.

but for a beginner you cant go wrong with regular water changes until you learn when you need to change the water. certain fert methods require weekly water changes like the EI method. while others like the pps pro method do not require water changes. i use the pps pro method.

[Mareshow]

when it comes to water changes in planted tanks i think it really depends on what type of fish you have in that tank, i had my discus in a planted tank once and needless to say the plants did not survive the 100% w/c everyday, but i do 50% a week, why so much? well luckily (or unluckily depending how you look at it) we have really hard water, which contains many of the vital minerals and nutrients that plants need, because our water is so "rich" i don't externally ferilize but i keep low maintenance plants for that reason. If i would keep more difficult plants i would(and have). Now as for you, if you are a beginner then i say don't go for the hard plants just yet. wait and get the really simple plants now like the java ferns/swords and anubias that are really simply to care for. focus on the fish and once you got them mastered move on to the environment you're keeping them in. I cannot count the times i've been to peoples houses looked at their tanks and cringed at the overstocked tanks full of stunted fish. I'm not trying to come across arrogant here but IMO i think its much more important to make sure you are taking care of the living creatures than the plants in your tank.

[winterman]

Thanks for the input. I have to agree that there are a lot less problems in a well balanced tank. We have had a 20 gallon for 4 years now with about 10 fish and some plants. Basic lighting and no CO2. It is at the point that if we do not add anything else it flourishes. Add another fish and it generally does not survive so we have stopped trying a long time ago and there have been no problems. We are understanding, now, the steps to take this newer larger tank to t he next level. Hopefully with all the input we will not be learning the hard and expensive way. Did get a good light system and will be getting a CO2 at the end of the month after payday. For now we still have to complete the Fishless cycle before anything is added. Nitrites spiked 2 days ago and the ammonia has been cut back. Ammonia levels are dropping right back within 12- 16 hours. The Nitrite is still staying high so it will be a little longer.

[Mareshow]

you probably already know this but after a fishless cycle be careful not to dump a bunch of fish in there at once. slowly keep adding fish

[winterman]

I did not know that for sure but I did assume it since the bacterial collony is still small. Hopefully though we will not loose much. Nitrate started to climbed now at 1ppm, ammonia at minimal levels but nitrite still off the chart. I have to see if it all starts to drop before the next ammonia addition in 2 days. Still a lot of learning so all input is welcome. looking at monday at the earliest

[werner]

One of the major points of fishless cycling is that you create a very large bacterial colony from the start that can support a fully stocked tank. If you're only adding a few fish here and there, the bacterial colonies that you've established are going to die off from lack of nutrients... and you're no better off than if you'd cycled with a few fish in the first place.

Fishless Cycle

Alternatively, if you pack the tank with plants from the start, and get them growing well, you don't even have to cycle the tank. The plants will take up the ammonia/ammonium from the fish. This is often called 'silent cycling'.

[jvision]

Shhhhh!