KevinW Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 I am looking for help. I have recently suffered a death and now have a sick fish. The long story is as follows: In Sept I started a new 70G tank which had been cycled for nearly a month using ammonia – all ammonia & nitrite were at 0. I stocked with a pair of Kribs and 3 Nichols Mouthbrooders that I had previously, and added 4 Labs, 3 Deep Magungas & a pair of Otopharynx Lithobates, purchased from 2 different LFS. In early Nov I added a pair of Flametail Peacocks purchased from an AA member. I perform weekly 30% water changes, ammonia & nitrite levels are always 0, nitrate is now creeping up to near 20 prior to water changes. The temperature is 81 degrees. I filter with an XP3 and use a powerhead that has some filtration as well. I am feeding only NLS Cichild formula. A week ago I had to euthanize a sick fish. In mid Nov I noticed my female Krib was suffering from fin rot & popeye. Prior to this she had not been eating much & spent most of the time in her cave. I moved her to a quarantine tank and medicated with an antibiotic (Kanamyacin) for the maximum recommended period. Her condition improved and she was eating flakes, brine shrimp & bloodworms. She was removed from the tank after 11 days as I needed the tank to house fry. In hindsight, a mistake. In the main tank she would try to eat NLS but would spit it out after chewing a few times. I noticed that her mouth was deformed, the lips seemed shrunken and she could not fully close her mouth. I tried feeding her flake food but she only got a little as the other fish were far more aggressive than her. The popeye came back and her colour became very pale and grayish. After almost 3 weeks her eyes were popping out extremely, she was hiding all the time and her skin looked like it was disintegrating. I am sure she was near death. I decided it would be best to euthanize her. Two days later I noticed a change in behaviour in my male Nichols. Normally he is very aggressive, chasing fish away from his territory and is an aggressive feeder. However he was only rarely chasing fish, was eating very half heartedly, and spent most of the time just hanging in the middle of the tank. His colour also looked a little pale. Two days ago I moved him to a quarantine tank (bought a new tank for this) and started medicating with Kanamyacin just in case. Yesterday he had a long thin white to clear feces that he was trying to pass. I am guessing that it was 4 to 6 inches long! Some research on the net leads me to think he might be suffering from bloat – the feces, the spitting out of food and the behaviour change. However there are things that make me think it is not bloat – I have had the Krib for 2 years and the Nichols for more than 1 year and when they were not in a Malawi tank they were regularly fed flake and Tubifex with brine shrimp or bloodworms once a week, all of which has more protein than NLS. As well none of the Malawi fish have exhibited any negative signs other than stringy clear feces on occasion. (I am crossing my fingers that nothing more will show up in the main tank). Another theory I have is that the Krib did not adjust well to the NLS and new tankmates and became weak from not eating enough and picked up an infection of some sort from the new fish. I did not notice the illness soon enough so that the antibiotic did not fully cure her. By placing her back in the main tank and letting her get near death she has infected the Nichols (& possibly other fish). Do you think bloat is the problem or an intestinal infection? Should I do anything different to treat the Nichols? Sorry for the long post but I thought it best to get the whole story out at one time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunl Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 Sounds like bloat to me, and I would treat as such. However, that being said, Neil (RD) can probably give you some better advice on this as he's more experienced in this area. Try sending him a PM and see if he can help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midgetwaiter Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 Malawi Bloat isn't something that it caused by a bacteria or parasite, it is a condition when the natural gut bacterias of the fish can't handle what they are eating and the food starts to rot in the gut. There is some debate about this though, IMO anything else with similar symptoms is often just called bloat.. What you are describing sounds like any one of a number of infectious intestinal problems. These can be present for a long period without obvious harm then for whatever reason overwhelm the fish. The most effective treatment for this is going to be an antibiotic like metronidazole administered orally. Soaking the food in it is a good way to treat if you can get the fish to eat, a little garlic added can help with that. Seachem makes a pretty good metro product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JORG Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 When in dout use clout it's available in most pet stores Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RD. Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 I agree with Aaron, the symptoms that you are describing could be caused by any number of things. People need to keep in mind that "bloat" is a symptom, not a disease, and over the past few years there have been some great advancements in this area. Malawi Bloat isn't something that it caused by a bacteria or parasite, it is a condition when the natural gut bacterias of the fish can't handle what they are eating and the food starts to rot in the gut. Most researchers in this area currently support the view that protozoans reside in the intestines of most/all healthy fish (in a dormant state), but can multiply to harmful numbers under stressful conditions. Below is a quote from Ad Konings from his book Back to Nature Guide to Malawi Cichlids 2nd. edition pg. 46: Malawi Bloat is believed to be caused by a flagellate (a unicellular animal, a protozoan). This flagellate occurs in the intestines of all Malawi cichlids but normally causes no harm since the fish's immune system can cope with it. However, in a stressful situation such a balance may disappear and the fish may lose its resistance against an outbreak of a flagellate "attack". This often leads to bloat. More detailed info on this subject here: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/spironucleus.php While an improper diet is indeed one of the stressors that can cause bloat symptoms, there are many other forms of stress that can lead to this type of outbreak in ones tank. All it takes is one fish with a weakened immune system to wreak havoc in an entire tank. Fin rot & pop eye are usually indications of poor water quality, but in this case they were most likely secondary infections brought on as the fishes immune system became weaker. If one suspects intestinal issues, IMO Jungle Tank Buddies Parasite Clear is the best way to go. I have heard nothing but very positive results about that particular med. The combination of metronidazole & praziquantel seems to have a potent effect on both internal, as well as external parasites, and it is much less harsher than Clout. Unlike Clout, it will also not affect the bio filters, nor will it stain your silicone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinW Posted December 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 Thank you very much everyone for your replies. I am off to the LFS to pick up some Jungle Tank Buddies Parasite Clear. This seems like my best plan of attack. - Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinless Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 geltek liquid capsules worked on a fish that had not eaten in 17 days. i wanted to avoid treating the water if possible. he did not take the first day offered but was recovering within the week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinW Posted December 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 Update - he did not make it. I was unable to find Jungle Tank Buddies Parasite Clear. Colby from Elite Aquatics said he hasn't seen it for sale in years. So I purchased some metronidazole which I administered. I also added some epsom salts for the laxative effect. This was around midday. At 7 pm of that day the fish seemed the same possibly a little more active. When I next checked in at 11 pm he was dead. At least he did not suffer a long lingering death. Colby suggested I feed the remaining fish NLS Thera A to help clear up whatever it is that give them the occasional white/ clear stringy feces, which I am currently doing. I am crossing my fingers that no other fish get sick. I haven't lost a fish in two years so I find it hard to lose two in a little over a week. By the way Neil can you still get Jungle Tank Buddies Parasite Clear in Red Deer? Thanks again to everyone for the help. - Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vapor Posted December 24, 2006 Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 Sorry to hear he didn't make it. I'm pretty sure I saw Jungle Tank Buddies at Petcetera. Not sure if it was for parasites though. Try calling a couple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RD. Posted December 24, 2006 Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 Most Petsmart's carry it, and yes, it is available in Red Deer. Sorry to hear that you lost the fish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New to Alberta Posted January 13, 2007 Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 I'd rule out water quality issues again just to be on the safe side. I have run into this problem when i thought everything was fine but the fishes health was telling we otherwise. The problem turned out to be faulty test kits. I was getting a very low reading on my Nitrate test kit but when I took my water in to the store and had them do the test on a different test kit (different brand even) My Nitrate turned out to be at 40 ppm. Problem found. The store noted that they were finding numerous faulty reading reports coming back on this paticular brand of test kits. I bought all new testers after that. Also - when in doubt do a partial water change. Any time my fish seen off I do small 20% water changes for the week. BTW - I'd stick to antiboitics over antiparisitics for this problem. Unless they are something that can be taken internally - the garlic advise was golden. I really hope you can find a solution to this - my heart goes out to you. I know how hard this particuler problem can be to solve or even diagnos. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murmade Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 (edited) Petcetera carries jungle buddies! If needed in the future! Edited January 15, 2007 by murmade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinW Posted January 15, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 Neil was right PetSmart carries Parasite Clear in Calgary as well. I bought some in case any other fish showed symptoms. Sure enogh about a week ago my female Yellow Lab had long clear feces so I quarantined her and gave her a dose of the Parasite Clear along with some epsom salts. Its been 8 days and she seems to be doing OK. It is hard to say for sure as she is not eating because she is holding. If she was eating I would feel 100% sure but will just have to wait another week or two. All of the other fish are staying healthy. I have my fingers crossed that I have seen the last of whatever it was. - Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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