under gravel jets and tanganykan rock dwellers

[hemingwaygt]

Hey, I'm curious if anyone has tried to setup under gravel jets to keep the gravel clean, while housing shallow rock dwellers? I'm cycling a new 75 gallon with giant danio's to eventaully house some Calvus (and whatever other Tanganykans I can afford without selling a body part). The under gravel jet setup (aka: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/ug_jets.php) seems like it will make the water flow quite disruptive to habitats. On the other hand, it sure beats removing all the rocks periodically to clean the gravel properly. Any thoughts or suggestions on the mattter are greatly appreciated - hopefully i'll have some Calvus fry to sell eventually.

- jimbob22

[jvision]

Leon seems to swear by them - I know he has one cichlid tank w. the UGJ, perhaps more!

[fshkpr4evr]

IMO undergravel filters are old technology. Do they work....yes. But are not a long term solution to maintain a healthy biological filter. I have a 50 gallon Tanganyika biotope with a lot of rock. I strongly encourage algae growth with these fish. They require a lot of plant protein in their nutritional requirements. The Nutrafin Max Spirulina flake food is a great staple diet for these fish. The food contains 30% Spirulina Pacifica...highest spirulina inclusion in the market. My fish attack this food.

As far as your counter-current design to help keep your gravel bed cleaner under the rock. Water flow will take the easiest path. If there is a rock above the gravel, then this area of gravel will not be "cleaned". I suggest you use an enzyme based product that will eliminate trapped particulate. I use Nutrafin Waste Control. This biological product actively seeks out organic waste and breaks it down to liquified waste. It works extremely well. If you have a lot of organic waste, then some ammonia may be produced when using Waste Control. This means that the team of enzymes and bacteria in Waste Control are "consuming" the organic waste to their full potential. Just add some Cycle to the tank and this will convert the ammonia to nitrite and nitrate in short order.

Simply put....Waste Control helps maintain healthier water conditions in well decorated aquariums.

[African_Fever]

I don't think adding any sort of enzyme or waste control product is the way to go. Liquifying organic wastes is going to put that much more waste into the water for your filter to remove, and that's never a good thing. It's much easier to vacuum out the solid wastes than remove them as liquified organics. I'll use a powerhead to blow the detritus out of my rockwork just before doing a water change - the solid waste settles outside the rocks and it's easy to vacuum this way. Why add chemicals etc. and make the hobby more expensive when a water change will accomplish the same thing?

I have a number of tanks with extensive rockwork for Tang. rock/cave dwellers, and I never remove the rocks to clean under and around them. The fish have organic wastes in the wild, so if you have adequate filtration they'll do fine with them in captivity. I haven't touched the rockwork in some of these tanks is 3-4 years, possibly more. Put a couple plants in and around your rocks (I'm partial to Crypts), and their roots will spread under the rockwork and help with some of the waste you're worried about. Plus disturbing the rockwork is going to disturb the breeding, especially with secretive cave dwellers.

I don't think jets are the way to go with any fish that you want living and breeding in the rocks. They'd be fine for a Malawian tank where you don't have any egglayers, but when fish are laying eggs on the rocks, any current around there is most likely going to be a bad thing.

And as for food, I'd contest the amount of 'plant protein' that most Tanganyikan rock dwellers need. Pretty sure that the dentition of A. calvus isn't going to do much in the way of scraping algae from rocks; they're a predator, plain and simple. And many other rock dwellers are insectivores, picking the insects out of the algae rather than grazing on the algae itself.

[RD.]

Well said Kyle, and I couldn't agree more. Hagen has quite the gimmick there, use one product to remove waste, and another product to reduce the chance of any resulting ammonia spikes after using the first product. Tetra has a similar product, which they state can allow one to go a full 6 months between water changes. Whoa ......

A turkey baster will force excess detritus out of the rocks as well.

And while Nutrafin Max has one of the highest spirulina inclusion rates on the market, it may also have one of the highest ash contents on the market. Coincidentally that particular flake is the only fish food marketed by Nutrafin that doesn't have the ash content listed on the label. Hmmmm. Even with species that are taxonomically classified as strict herbivores in the wild, the excessive mineral content found in a flake food such as this will definitely impede growth. This high mineral content slows the metabolic processes in fish. Been there, done that.

Although kelp & spirulina both have their place in a quality fish food, neither one should ever be at the top of the ingredients list, no matter what type of fish you keep.

http://www.hagen.com/uk/aquatic/nutrafinmax/lowash.cfm

"NUTRAFIN Max minimizes ash levels by using only the highest quality ingredients. High ash content contributes to water pollution and ultimately the presence of toxic elements in aquariums. Compared to other fish foods, NUTRAFIN Max has the lowest ash levels - guaranteed.

Ash in a fish food is the inorganic material that comes mainly from using inexpensive and poor quality fishmeal containing high amounts of fish bones and scales. Ash is composed of essential and nonessential minerals as well as impurities and even toxic elements. Almost all aquarium fish foods on the market today have high levels of ash that may cause a mineral imbalance harmful to fish health and also contributes to pollute water. Compared to other fish foods, NUTRAFIN Max contains the least amount of ash. Low ash content is guaranteed on the label of NUTRAFIN Max. When you buy fish food, check the guaranteed analysis for ash levels on labels, and remind yourself that low ash content means good quality if other aspects are similar."

Here's some info I had sent to me from someone who used to use this spirulina flake, and became concerned after reading my comments about this product. I X'd out the names to protect the innocent.

Quote:

Dear xxx,

I apologize for not getting back to you sooner. Since this product is made of 30% Spirulina, it does not have a low ash content. I was unable to find information on exactly what the content is, but was told it is "quite high". This is something that is unavoidable as Spirulina has a high ash content. I'm sorry I was unable to help you further.

Thank you,

Sharon xxx, Customer Service Dept.

Rolf C. Hagen (USA) Corp.

HTH

[hemingwaygt]

awesome info - thx! I think I'll forgo the undergravel and rely on a powerhead and a couple of AC300's. For mid swimmers though undergravel is the way to go.

I've been cycling this new tank for about 10 days with 12 lg. danio's - I lost 4 after a week then all but one after day 10 - oddly, there's not a fish remain to be seen - it's like they spontaneously combusted. there's little room to jump out, and no dead fish in the filter or anywher in the tank (only gravel in the tank). Kind of freaky as I'm planning to put Calvus in it ~ November 1. Any suggestions as to what happened???? I suppose I better check my water before putting in expensive fish.

jimbob22