Fish swelling??

[Sammy]

Good morning,

I recently have had a little problem in the main tank that I cant figure out. First, about 6 days ago I found a Hap cf. with signs of bloat, by then it was too late (he died in a hospital tank 2 days later) and the same day he died another fish in the show tank died with no visible signs of anything (I did notice him got alittle darker in color the day before and he had seemed to have doubled in size) Then yesterday I found another fish dead. Oh before I forget, I started adding melafix to the main tank when the first 2 died. I have noticed some of my other fish are looking like their bodies were getting thicker and not in the bellies either, their whole shape seemed to get larger. I thought nothing of them getting bigger till this morning when I noticed the fish all seemed back to normal size no more swelling. My fish seemed to be subdued during this time of sickness, not the usual beggers that they have been. Until this morning when they looked better with no visual swelling. I have heard many different stories about bloat and have really never experienced it at this level if in fact thats what it is.

One last note, I normally feed my fish HBH super veggie flake daily with brine shrimp once per week and about 10 days ago I chopped up some freeze dried krill.

Thought that may have been my problem at first cause thats the only tank to get the krill.

So my first question would be can bloat affect the fishes entire boady mass?

2. Does a cocktail of Melafix and permafix cause your fish to swell?

3. What the F**K is going on in my tank?

Any help would be appreciated

Sammy

P.S- Unless my test kit is bad, all water perameters have been fine (ph, nitrate, amonia and nitrite)

[dunl]

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=24132

[RD.]

1. So my first question would be can bloat affect the fishes entire boady mass?

Yes, although usually by the time you see severe swelling the damage is too far gone to save the fish. (but not always)

2. Does a cocktail of Melafix and permafix cause your fish to swell?

No, I've never seen or heard of this happening and I know many people that have used this combo, including myself.

3. What the F**K is going on in my tank?

From the info supplied, I would suspect the krill. Perhaps you got a bad batch, such as one that had been thawed in transit (or while in stoarge) and then re-frozen? It's impossible to say, but frozen products can indeed introduce pathogens into a tank.

[RD.]

- here's some pics of a male peacock with severe bloat symptoms.

[dunl]

BTW, epsom salt is cheap and can act as a diruretic (sp?) for fish.....you might want to put some of that in as well.

Hope your tank pulls through. I had bloat in Oct./November, and it wiped out quite a few of my fish....

[Sammy]

Good evening,

Thank you all for the quick replies, I found every reply to be good solid info. :beer:

RD,

I had my concerns about the krill the first time I gave it to them months ago when one of the fish (who did not die) became ill right afterwards. He would still come up for food but, eat only a little then just hover around in the tank. I dont know if this is a bad thing but the krill was a door prize at one of the ACE meetings. :boxed:

It may very well have been frozen before I got it and I have put in the freezer myself after getting it thawed . The krll hit the garbage after reading the reply.

dunl,

Thanks for the link Great info in that post.. I also upped the salts in the tank a couple days ago. I will continue tonight as well. In that post you linked to, it mentions that after introducing new fish others could get sick for up to 6 weeks after? That was very intresting info to learn. I have added 2 new fish in the last 6 weeks plus I transfered my fish to the 90 gallon 6 weeks ago. 50gal of tankwater, substrate, decor and filter media was also transfered over. So the thought of maybe my test kit is wacked out and my system never kicked in right away was haunting me, I've been anal about the water since transfering over (at least thats what the wife says) But I have tested again and all water parameters are fine.

As of right now the fish look amazingly well and the couple fish that looked like they beefed up seem to have settled down and came begging when I got home.

After all of this I think i'll keep their diet simple and be alot more careful putting new fish in the tank. Again thanks for the help its greatly appreciated. Will update tomorrow.

Sammy

Edited January 22, 2005 by Sammy

[dunl]

Yes, I have heard of bloat occuring up to six weeks after the introduction of new fish in the tank, due to carrying the internal parasites that cause this.

That's why I have taken up on RD's suggestion of feeding new fish metronidazole soaked pellets for five days after introduction to my tank. Should kill any internal parasites, and keep the local crown on track. ;-)

You can get this at Petland for sure, others will have to let you know of sources for it....only place in Red Deer I know of...

Good luck with them.

Dunl

[RD.]

Bloat can occur anytime a fishes immune system takes a serious hit.

The best post in the bloat thread was by Kyle (Fish Phenom)

"Malawi bloat" is a disease perptuated by microscopic flagellates (parasites) that are commonly found in healthy fish. These one-celled protozoans reproduce by binary fission. They can occur on the skin, in the intestine, internal organs, and in the blood of fish.

Intestinal flagellates can be found in many fish which they do not harm. The pathogenicity of the organism varies from fish to fish. Thus, Angelfish may not be affected at all by the same flagellates that damage say a Discus. The intestines of these fish can contain millions of flagellates averaging in size of about 8-12 microns. Here is a list of some commonly known flagellates:

A. Hexamita

B. Spironucleus

c. Trichomanas

D. Bodamonas

E. Protoopalina

The most recognized are the first two.

Most researchers support the view that some of these protozoans reside in the intestines of healthy fish (dormant), but can proliferate to harmful numbers under stressful conditions.

Here is a recent quote from Ad Konings from his book Back to Nature Guide to Malawi Cichlids 2nd. edition pg. 46:

"Malawi Bloat is believed to be caused by a flagellate (a unicellular animal, a protozoan). This flagellate occurs in the intestines of all Malawi cichlids but normally causes no harm since the fish's immune system can cope with it. However, in a stressful situation such a balance may disappear and the fish may lose its resistance against an outbreak of a flagellate "attack". This often leads to bloat."

Fish are very good at fighting off disease, but when exposed to stressful conditions over a lengthy periods of time their immune systems weaken, thereby exposing them to the possibility of contracting various diseases. Under "stress" the organism multiplies causing considerable localised damage. Once severe enough, the intestinal lining is penetrated and the organism enters the blood causing systemic and organ infections. In large numbers they can block the intestinal tract of a fish creating the"bloat"effect.

Some stressors:

1. Low oxygen (O2) levels

2. High nitrite (NO2) levels

3. High nitrate (NO3) levels

4. High ammonia levels (NH3)

5. High or low temperature levels

6. Water pH

7. Lighting

8. Rough handling fish

9. Overcrowding

10. Not enough shelter

11. Harassment

12. Excessive salt

13. Improper diet (specifically herbivores)

What one should remember, is that the parasitical outbreak is brought upon by any number of stressors (some listed above), many times in conjunction with one another. Therefore, sometimes the best way to treat a disease is to prevent it from ever happening. A clean non-stressful environment will breed colorful, thriving cichlids.

Edited January 22, 2005 by RD.

[Sammy]

Thanks again guys, I think the storm has passed and things are looking a lot better.

I have read possibly 50 articles and posts about bloat over the last year and have found many different views on the subject. I have read Konings books and have his CD's and found them very informing and so far the most reliable. My fish over this time of illness did match some of the described signs of bloat but, lacked others which I found to be the most obvious signs. Examples are, they would all come out to eat and were displaying full coloration all the time with no heavy breathing or other obvious signs however, they seemed slower then usually like they had smoked a fat Joint or something . In fact, some of the smaller fish were starting to show more color then ever before. As for the size increase I mentioned in the last post they all seemed to rapidly grow over the course of the week which I thought was normal since I had moved them to the larger tank 6 weeks earlier and downsized the number of fish during the transfer. So, you can see where my distress calls came from. lol I wanted to start treating the whole tank for Bloat but was not overly convinced. I'm still leaning towards the krill being my downfall and again I have read bloat is not necessarly caused by feeding or over feeding your fish. All said and done I'm going to keep my fingers crossed and continue with small water changes over the next couple days to get the melafix out. By the way the melafix was introuduced as a precaution for some mild scratches on one of the wild caughts and didn't want it to turn into something else. The day after the melafix was in was when I noticed the other poop going down, that's where the question about Melafix came in.

Once again you guys have been a great help and I thank you. I will update tomorrow.

Sammy

Edited January 22, 2005 by Sammy

[RD.]

The problem stems from the fact that 'bloat' tends to be used as a catch all term for any type of gastrointestinal disorder. When it involves internal parasites or pathogens the fish generally do 'bloat' up, hence the term bloat is used to describe the illness.

In your case I strongly suspect that this is simply a case of 'bad food', that was not properly stored somewhere along the line. You never want to let frozen food thaw, then re-freeze it, then thaw it again & feed it to your fish. Also, the sudden introduction of frozen food to fish that aren't used to such a diet can also trigger gastointestinal issues, even if the food is fresh. Much like a human who's used to a diet of dry toast & milk, suddenly eating a hot & spicy Mexican meal.

When bloat involves an increase in internal pathogens, the first sign one will see is the fish going off it's feed, either not eating at all, or spitting the food, which is usually followed by long clear stringy feces (as the gut attempts to cleanse itself) and the fish will also usually go into seclusion. The next sign is generally the fish 'bloating' up, as the internal organs are now starting to swell. If the internal organ damage is too severe, there's no saving the fish.