Albino Aulonocara Ngara Flametail F-2

[African_Fever]

Dan,

Sure, it is possible that the fish are true. But personally, if you believe that you may as well go out and buy a lottery ticket b/c the odds are much better of winning the lottery.

Snakes aren't fish, and have different genetics. I had actually asked Stuart about the number of albino's he's seen in the whole time he's been on the lake (over 25 years), and I'm pretty sure he hadn't seen a single one, ever. I know if his divers ever saw one they'd definitely catch it b/c they do know what is common and what isn't, and they would always be on the lookout for the bonus that would accompany an albino (they actually found a new Aulonocara while I was there, it was actually somewhat similar to the line-bred 'tangerine' jacobfreibergi's, unfortunately only 2 males, and since there were no females I never brought them back).

With albino Aulonocara's being just about THE most common albino cichlid on the market, my money is still on them being hybrids.

[RD.]

Yes, anything is possible, but in this case not very probable.

If you breed two of these normal appearing heterozygous animals together and you will produce approx 25% albino fry.

Not exactly. Genetics are random, and there is no guarantee that 25% albino fry will be the result of such a breeding.

[dunl]

All it would have taken is one albino to survive long enough and produce fry in the wild and you would have a multitude of normal appearing animals that carry the albino gene.

Unfortunately, I think the chances of that happening are slim to none, due to the fact that they would not be able to camoflage themselves.

[RD.]

Even if an albino cichlid in the wild did survive to breeding age, recent studies suggest that sexual selection through female choice of male coloration also plays an important role. I would think this would lessen the chances of albinos successfully breeding in the wild. (at least at a typical rate)

A couple of interesting reads on population genetics and African cichlids.

The first link examines male-biased dispersal in Lake Malawi cichlids, the second

species flock & population genetics in African cichlids.

http://www.hull.ac.uk/cichlids/MEKdisp.pdf

http://www.evolutionsbiologie.uni-konstanz.de/pdf/P162.pdf

Given the information in those two studies, I'd say the chances of winning the 'albino lottery' with a pair of wild African cichlids are extremely remote.

[Big D]

Actually guys the genetics are the same it is simple Mendalian genetics.

Is it true that these peacocks are pure I have no idea but it can happen.

Unfortunately, I think the chances of that happening are slim to none, due to the fact that they would not be able to camoflage themselves.

This is why I used the snake example, I breed some very rare boas and pythons (as well as fish) genetic mutants, many are recessive genes and all were orginally found in the wild. Snakes relie heavily on camoflauge and yet every year they find a pure white albino reticulated python/blood python what have you cruising around in the wild, many times almost adult. The animal which relies heavily on camaflouge to not only stay hidden from predators but also catch prey still survives for years until it is encountered by some lucky native who brings it into captivity. This native then sells this animal and makes a years wages because some crazed snake breeder has to have it.

Recessive albino genes work the same way in all organisms and in captivity with selective breeding you can rule out alot of the chance when it comes to combining them.

For arguments sake

How did the first albino zebra come about?? If it was hybridzed with another albino African how did that come about? It all goes back to a wildcaught pair of Africans that carried the albino gene which were bred in captivity produced albinos and then we took over. If it happened once it can happen again.

Same goes for albino fish of other species oscars, angels etc. Albino genes are constantly floating around in wild populations and one lucky breeder gets the right combination and bang you have the first albino oscar and then selective breeding takes over.

I beleive it happens more times than you think and just because Stuart has never seen one in the wild does not mean one did not exist at some point to pass on its genes. Yes I agree that it would be like winning the lottery and yet many people do this every year.

Also in captivity due to inbreeding which happens ALOT the chances of these albino genes combining and making an albino offspring is also greatly increased.

Just my 2 cents

Dan

[RD.]

Hi Dan,

I agree with much of what you're saying, it's just that many of these albino fish are known to be hybrids. I'm not discounting all albino African cichlids, but I think it's safe to say that the majority of these strains are indeed man made.

If 25 various species have been man made creations by a single breeder (and I trust the source that told me this), how many 'other' albino African species does that leave?

It seems to me that several years ago albinos started to become popular in the hobby, and SHAZAM, suddenly new variants of albinos started popping up left, right, and center. Are all albino fish hybrids, no, but I think it's safe to say that the majority of strains now out on the market are indeed crosses.

One just has to look at the sloppy albino cross breeding taking place in Asia, and you can see how easily the breeders are influenced by supply & demand. Most of those are obvious crosses, with no need for a DNA test to verify they are hybrids.

[Big D]

I totally agree RD it could very well be a hybrid but I was just trying to explain how it can happen from wild fish.

If this is the case who really knows other than the guy who bred them.

Take care

Dan

[African_Fever]

I agree with everything you've said so far Dan, but I don't think that the percentage of wild fish carrying the albino gene would be that high, or even existent. Albinism also occurs as a result of a mutation, probably the same kind of mutation that resulted in me having Aulonocara's born with two heads etc. I think as cichlids are inbred in captivity, certain species are more susceptible to mutation than others (ie. Aulonocara's and socolofi). As soon as the mutations occur, those who have it quickly seize the opportunity and breed the @#$% out of them to get as many more albino's as they can.

If there had been only 1 albino in the brood, and it were a 1 time occurence, I would believe that it was in fact a random mutation, and the fish could be wild/F1. But with 4, it would essentially follow Medelian genetics as you said, and both parents would've been carriers already of the recessive trait. If wild fish DO in fact sometimes carry the gene I think more hobbyists would've seen it already.

If it had been any species other than an Aulonocara or one of the other commonly-seen albinos, (such as a red empress or frontosa variant [maybe a little closer to home for you?]), I'd have to believe whatever he said about the lineage of his fish.

It's great to get someone in here with some other viewpoints on the subject as well as some more knowledge. Great to see you on the forum!

Edited April 5, 2005 by African_Fever

[RD.]

Using the albino yellow lab shown in the link below as an example, with this species being THE most popular Malawi fish on the market, and the fact that it has been inbred to the 10th degree over the past 20 years, you would think albino's in this species would by now be very common in the hobby, yet this is the only albino 'yellow lab' I have ever seen. (outside of the obvious hybrids sold in Asia)

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=1668

IMHO, just another hybrid mutt.

[dunl]

Albinos do occur in the wild, I just doubt that a large enough percentage of them survive in order to produce as many "pure" albinos as are claimed.

As for the example of snakes, I would assume that as a fierce predator, they would stand a better chance of survival as they are higher up the food chain than an Aulonacara. Same as an albino shark would stand a better chance of survival than an albino mackeral.

Good points, though.

Edited April 5, 2005 by dunl