Fish Auctions/ Fish Shows/ Fish Clubs and how they compare

[Bandi]

I took some hybrid fish to the auction yesterday. I wasn't sure if this was allowed but I read the rules on the website back and forth and could find no comment on it. Turns out I wasn't the only one selling hybrids, so that was good.

I was happy to see Lyrtail swords there also (bought some).

But chatting with one of the "helpers" that day I learned that his club would not allow hybrids and many other types of fish at their auction. Upon further discussion I was distraught to discover that this club would also outlaw the sale of many "varieties" of species on the count that "they are examples of animal cruelty". The example I was given was my beloved Lyrtail swords because they are "man made" and the males are functionally sterile. Then this person went on to say that any "longfin" variety of any species would also be disqualified from any of their show and sales because they are not natural. This person went on to state in no uncertain terms that blood parrots (another favorite of mine) are "an abomination" as are flowerhorns. This fellow had never even heard of the Red Texas which indicated to me he chooses to keep his fish knowledge very narrow and tunnel-like. He also made it clear how dyed fish should be outlawed world wide.

After listening to this, I thought about his comments in depth to myself and discussed it with my husband. If this fellow judged a fish show or supervised an fish auction or sale (which he says he does all the time) any Vail tail Oscar would be disqualified. As would long fin rosy barbs, long fin angles, fancy gold fish, long finned anything. Flowerhorns, a highly prized fish by many cultures, would not be tolerated.

I guess I am a bit more open minded then this fellow and I don't begrudge him his beliefs, however, I would have preferred he kept his critical comments about fish he doesn't approve of to himself. The CAS auction attracts hobbyists from all backgrounds and discriminates none, and I felt this person squashed the positive atmosphere the good people of CAS worked so hard to create.

I may or may not agree with dyed fish but I have a choice to buy or not buy them. I don't go around impossing my values on others. I choose respect and tolerance.

Just my opinion.

Would love to hear other views.

[CursiveDuck]

Seems a little rough of him to spill that all on you, specially if he could clearly see you were selling such hybrids. Though I won't disagree about the colored fish thing, I am completely against dying my fish, but as far as hybrids go, you know I don't really see the issue. A ton of foods we eat, or that are eaten world wide are hybrids or line bred. Alberta's beef industry is full of line breeding, choosing the right males to produce huge animals. I mean as long as it's done in a humane way, that doesn't impede the animal or hurt them (Aka. Turkeys first being bred to the point their legs would break because their chests getting to big). And I don't see infertility as a form of cruelty, unless your going in there and cutting em off yourself. But that's just my opinion. And I don't think he was very fair to attack you like that, even if it was unintentional.

[DanGofCalgary]

When I read the title, I was afraid you were going to complain about my threat to Karoake if I couldn't get rid of Ealeys magazines for a buck!

That's sounds like a pretty intense conversation you had. I would have been interested to join that discussion, just to find out what club had isolated all but 5 or so members... I had to go check that it wasn't the Edmonton club you were talking about as I am heading up there for their auction on the 17th and hoping to see a variety of interesting fish and as I expected, it isn't them. There are some purists in Edmonton, but just as quickly they will discuss and compare the merits of many line bred fish like the angels and swords.

I'm more of the 'live and let live' variety. I am not in favor of dieing fish, or breeding a specific mutation like that spinal thing that creates 'bubble fish'.

Hybrids? There are enough interesting fish for me that I don't really find the hybridization of fish interesting, but that doesn't make it wrong, just not something that I would pursue or financially support.. However that is just my choice. To impose that on an entire cities club? That seems... I don't know. regressive? isolationist? Luddinitean? It doesn't seem right to me.

I am also not a naturalist even though I do enjoy a lot of natural species that are very subtle in their beauty. (that covers just about any goodeids! haha!). I also enjoy the line bred angels, like the blacks and the philipine blue ghost. For all I know, they may actually be hybrids of some angel species so I could be full of beans on the hybrid thing!

And I have a pair of SuperRed Severums that i am trying to spawn.

In any case, in any group of people there are going to be the extremist views, both right and left of the political spectrum. It will be interesting to see how that club fairs with that approach. It seems almost no clubs have a fish show any more, so you'd be hard pressed to run one that is eliminating probably a third or more of the possible fish.

I do not agree with that approach or belief, and hopefully the rest of the auction and day were enjoyable for you. Educate, don't isolate. Share information, not enforce your opinion. And at the end of the day, let people enjoy what they enjoy in the hobby, so long as the fish are not being ill treated is my belief. I learned a long time ago, there are no absolutes. Every side has their argument for and against. It's finding the shade of grey that you are comfortable with.

And by the way, there are some darn pretty Flowerhorns. Not my thing, but I am actually interested in your breeding program and if you are isolating a specific trait at source (by that I mean crossing species to create a particular species, as opposed to just breeding hybrids).

Just one mans opinion, late at night, so take it with a grain of salt.

Peace

Edited October 5, 2010 by DanGofCalgary

[werner]

At the CAS, one of our stated objectives objectives is "The encouragement of the hobby of fish keeping".

Sounds like you were highly discouraged by this person's statements. From your comments, I suspect they are from another club, but if you believe they are a CAS member, please PM me. We want to educate people, but absolutely do not want to come across as know-it-alls or elitist.

Every club can set it's own rules for shows and auctions. To some, a fish's natural characteristics are more of a priority. Cbviously, some of the more modern "alterations" to fish (hybridization, coloring/dyeing, genetic modifications, etc.) can be abhorrent to certain people. Where you draw your line and where I draw mine may be totally different.

Think of the Westminster Kennel Club Show- would most people's dogs be eligible? Probably not... but they go on loving them all the same.

PS- That was a gorgeous swordtail.

[Bandi]

Sounds like you were highly discouraged by this person's statements. From your comments, I suspect they are from another club, but if you believe they are a CAS member, please PM me. We want to educate people, but absolutely do not want to come across as know-it-alls or elitist.

I wasn't discouraged so much as shocked. My lifestyle and our family business exposes us to all kinds of extremists in regards to animal welfare, and in my nearly two years of being submersed in the fish hobby I never came across an individual (or a group for that matter) who held animal rights views about fish.

I always found it funny that many animal rights people who choose to become vegetarians because of their “love for animals” find it perfectly acceptable to eat fish…as if fish are not animals. (I know there are also vegetarians who don’t eat fish but I am just making a point.) As a family who owns an animal based business who is always under scrutiny by animal rights groups, my husband and I found it odd that these groups never seemed to target and complain about the hobby fish industry. Sure I heard of individuals who stated they don’t agree with wild caught fish, or dyed fish or hybrids etc. These people voiced their opinion and simply choose not to participate in the area they disliked. What I learned by chatting with this fellow was this is more then just a group of people who choose not to keep fish they don’t agree with. This group opens their club and events to the public and impose their beliefs on others who want to participate.

Until Sunday, I have never heard of a movement to ban various fish hobby practices in the name of animal cruelty. But I guess it really shouldn’t surprise me.

[sicklid]

Man... what next? Radical fish people , who would have thunk it. It's almost as if he thinks someone is altering the food chain. Anyway I have a 90 gal tank full of various Africans, all bought before I found out about this site. They are all males axcept for 1 female red peacock , so no breeding going on there. Then in Feb I started up my 45 gal again and put in a bunch of juvie Africans from LFS's. Once again before I found this site. So then some of them were males and some females. Since then all of a sudden in April I had a couple fry in my tank, then another in Aug and another last week. I know the female is blue cobalt and the male I believe is a rusty. So what to do with these hybrids (mutts)? As I read a post from JLake a while back he said usually they were "taken care of" by the other fish but if some survived oh well, no culling. Since then I have educated myself and started a third tank 30gal at the beginning of Sept with the male red eureka I got at the auction last March (Harold's stock) and went to Calgary and got 3 females from Harold to keep it company. One of them is already holding!!! With all that said I will leave my 45 gal with the assorted Africans to breed as they wish. They are having fun!!! It is good though that we do have serious breeders who are trying to keep lines pure. But I do agree that if you are trying to increase the hobby and attract new members dumping that crap on them isn't the way to do it. Although I have had fish since age 10 or so I am new to cichlids. I met Harold at the auction in March and was given a totally different insight. He gave me added enthusiasm and was helpful and encouraging to a relative 'beginner'. I am looking forward to the next auction......hope I don't meet that guy there.......

[Catmandu]

At the CAS, one of our stated objectives objectives is "The encouragement of the hobby of fish keeping".

Sounds like you were highly discouraged by this person's statements. From your comments, I suspect they are from another club, but if you believe they are a CAS member, please PM me. We want to educate people, but absolutely do not want to come across as know-it-alls or elitist.

Every club can set it's own rules for shows and auctions. To some, a fish's natural characteristics are more of a priority. Cbviously, some of the more modern "alterations" to fish (hybridization, coloring/dyeing, genetic modifications, etc.) can be abhorrent to certain people. Where you draw your line and where I draw mine may be totally different.

Think of the Westminster Kennel Club Show- would most people's dogs be eligible? Probably not... but they go on loving them all the same.

PS- That was a gorgeous swordtail.

I agree with Werner,every hobbiest must establish their own limits. The ACE has this question arises often when we are planning a show but where do you draw the line on hybrids when so many have been accepted in the hobby for so long.Many of the peacocks [ aulonocara] are purposely hybridized as are almost any swordtail available now.I personally cant stand bubble eye goldfish or ballon anything but they are widely accepted for some strange reason. the ACE does draw the line at dyed or injected fish [we think thats a no brainer] and the Alberta government made the decision to band the transgenic glowfish so no need for us to deal with that yet so do your research and make up your own mind and if someone tells you that hybrids are abhorent just ask them if they can tell which of the beautiful peacocks are wild types

[vince0]

At the CAS, one of our stated objectives objectives is "The encouragement of the hobby of fish keeping".

Sounds like you were highly discouraged by this person's statements. From your comments, I suspect they are from another club, but if you believe they are a CAS member, please PM me. We want to educate people, but absolutely do not want to come across as know-it-alls or elitist.

Every club can set it's own rules for shows and auctions. To some, a fish's natural characteristics are more of a priority. Cbviously, some of the more modern "alterations" to fish (hybridization, coloring/dyeing, genetic modifications, etc.) can be abhorrent to certain people. Where you draw your line and where I draw mine may be totally different.

Think of the Westminster Kennel Club Show- would most people's dogs be eligible? Probably not... but they go on loving them all the same.

PS- That was a gorgeous swordtail.

I agree with Werner,every hobbiest must establish their own limits. The ACE has this question arises often when we are planning a show but where do you draw the line on hybrids when so many have been accepted in the hobby for so long.Many of the peacocks [ aulonocara] are purposely hybridized as are almost any swordtail available now.I personally cant stand bubble eye goldfish or ballon anything but they are widely accepted for some strange reason. the ACE does draw the line at dyed or injected fish [we think thats a no brainer] and the Alberta government made the decision to band the transgenic glowfish so no need for us to deal with that yet so do your research and make up your own mind and if someone tells you that hybrids are abhorent just ask them if they can tell which of the beautiful peacocks are wild types

That would be the ones with a collection point :P