Poor Water Quality

[RD.]

Sounds good Harold.

I was told on another thread that pond dechlorinater was higher strength

That appears to be a common misconception, and one that many people appear to make.

[HOSStile]

Because I only had my chemical which is called Safe Water by Aquarium Products Co. which claims to remove chlorine and chloramine from tap water and boost your pond biological system. It claims that 30 ml. is enough to treat 250 gallons of water. Given this and before RD's input I diluted the stuff about 4 to 1. My test tank was a 10 gal. tank I had just scrubbed out with warm water only, the gravel was rinsed in tap water and was about 1 gal. in volume. I filled it with water that was about 80 degrees according to the thermometer strip on the front. I estimate approximately 9 gallons of water from the tap. I did NOT turn on the heater, aeration. or the AC.My fist test strip tested as follows.

Free Chlorine .5- 1ppm.

PH = 7.8

ALK. 120

I then added 4ml. of my DILUTED water Conditioner and after 30 secs + 15 secs the strip needs to process.

Free Chlorine 0.0

PH =7.5 ??????

ALK = 120

After 1 minute + 15 seconds for test.

Free Chlorine = 0.0

PH= 7.5

ALK = 120

To me it would be interesting for people with cloramine in the water to do the same test + testing for freed ammonia as well.

My suggestion to everyone is to do what they think is best in their own aquariums whether it means using tap water or only using holy water stolen from the local Catholic Church . I change 30 % of the water 2 times a week. The used water is used for watering plants and my pond. Harold

Edited June 25, 2005 by HOSStile

[RD.]

There's the rub Harold, for myself the only thing that matters is the amount of 'free' ammonia left over after the chlorine is converted. Chlorine is a snap to deal with, and 100% of the water conditioners out there will convert chlorine to a harmless state (most are sodium thiosulfate based), but many of the companies that claim they will also remove chloramine are making false claims, as they do no such thing. (such as Hagen AquaPlus) A simple test for 'free' ammonia levels (not total ammonia as most test kits are designed for) will prove this easy enough. Also, as you just noticed, many water conditioners will also cause your pH to drop, which is not something most fish keepers (especially those that keep African cichlids) want happening each & every time they perform a water change.

[HOSStile]

AS I said it would be interesting to see people in Edmonton doing the same test with Chloramine treated water, they would also see chlorine go to 0 but it would be interesting to measure free ammonia. And what what I understand Chloramine treated water does not gas off the same way as Chlorine. About pond treatment if they say 30 ml for 250 gallons, would the surface area of water and the amount used for treatment be the same if the water depth was similar, say a 2 feet deep pond would have the same gallonage per square foot of surface area as say a 70 gal tank. As I have said, I change my water probably more than most people. I cannot say I experienced any bad effects and my fish seem quite healthy. I guess what all this discussion does is create more discussion, but I think given what some people hold to be factual, that is a good thing.

[RD.]

Harold - With chlorine treated tap water, you have nothing to worry about, be it a pond formula, or an aquarium formula. Chances are very good that you could perform a 10-20% water change twice a week in your tanks, with no water conditioner, and your fish would be fine.

On the flip side, chloramine will remain at 100% strength, for weeks, so one needs to be a little more concerned with how well their water conditioner performs.

Edited June 26, 2005 by RD.

[DCallele]

BTW - the vast majority  of the horror stories you read about people having entire tanks wiped out by their water treatment plant switching to chloramine during the summer months, and the fishkeepers using a conditioner that only treats for chlorine, are total nonsense.   In an established tank, an ammonia spike would have to be a real whopper (seldom seen in chloramine use) in order to cause instant toxic shock to fish.   Over time, yes, constant exposure to ammonia can weaken the immune system, especially in tanks that have higher pH, such as found in most of our tanks.   But instant death from a small spike, not very likely.

I live in Saskatoon where we sometimes see massive amounts of chloramine. Prior to my 'waking up' and realizing that we *were* using chloramine, I treated my water with a conditioner for chlorine only - neglecting the label's comment stating that it also broke the chloramine bond.

On what was possibly the worst day of my fishkeeping life, I did a 50% water change on a 48 gallon tank, 50% on a 72 gallon tank, and 15% on a 110 gallon tank.

By the time I got back to looking at the 48 (approximately 30 to 40 minutes), I had approximately 70% mortality. In the 72, approximately 30% mortality (about 20 minutes). Both tanks tested almost 3 ppm ammonia once I had the chance to test them. The day before, both tanks tested 0 ammonia but a little high on the nitrates.

In the 110 gallon tank, the water went to a milky white in the time in took me to rescue the remaining fish in the 48 and 72 - worst case of bloom I have ever experienced.

So, I am sad to say that I have personal experience with a near instant ammonia spike. I also know 2 other people who were caught in the same day of infamy... none of us were very happy with the city water treatment folks that day.

And I was not very darn happy with myself for not paying attention to the chemical characteristics of my water supply... pretty embarassed actually.

But, I thought I would share that it *does* happen :grr: its not just some urban legend sort of thing.

Sigh, maybe I can cut back on the time with the therapist now that I have finally admitted what a dork I was...

David

[RD.]

David ........ I realize that it can, and does happen, and that's why I stated "the vast majority". In your case the chloramine concentration must have been massive in order to get such a high spike in ammonia. It's a rare, but your story is living proof that it can indeed happen.

[DCallele]

Yeah, it is unfortunate that it does happen... I just got an email from a friend who got hit with an ammonia spike a couple of days ago - shortly after the water coming out of Calgary, etc. crested here in Saskatoon.

When I contacted the people at the water treatment plant they swore that we should never see over 1.5 ppm ammonia after treatment (which is still very high I thought) but did concede that in cases of major storms or the like that we might see something higher.

A question: I lost a small tank (8 gallons) at about the same time as my friend. Performed a 3 gallon water change in the late evening, the next morning I had two dead plecos with exploded stomachs. I tested for nitrates, very low, but in my frustration I did not think to check for ammonia :bang1:

Has anyone ever had a similar experience after a water change? Or, are there any other suggestions as to what might have happened?

Thanks.

BTW, I use Prime and I am going to use somewhat higher concentrations after reading all the rest of this thread.

David

[RD.]

Hey David,

No worries, I do understand that it can happen, that's for sure.

I used to moderate on cichlid-forum in the Illness, Health, and Nutrition folder, so I also know that in most cases it wasn't a chloramine issue, but usually something else that took place in the water lines when someone's fish got wiped out over night. It took a few days to usually get all the facts in, and when we did it wasn't a chloramine issue at all. It takes some serious chloramine to get the ammonia spike that you saw, someone at your plant must have gotten carried away to have those levels of ammonia showing up. :bang1:

Sorry to hear about your tank loss, been there myself, and it takes a long time

to recover from something like that.

Prime is 'ok' for neutralizing ammonia, but ClorAm-X is much better.

When using Seachem's own ammonia test kit (for both free & total ammonia) I discovered that even when the system here was stable, I needed to use twice the recommended dosage of Prime to safely bind all of the remaining ammonia after a water change. This was on a 30% water change, in a medium stocked 55 gallon with two established AC 500's acting as my bio filtration.

In order to test for ammonia when using Prime etc, you need to use a test kit that will test for 'free' ammonia, not total ammonia, as most test kits will give a false reading.

[HOSStile]

Kinda glad we use the good old fashioned chlorine then, or until or mayor decides he can spend millions of dollars changing to chloramine and somehow create traffic jams by doing it.

[RD.]

Dealing with chloramine is not a problem, as long as one understands exactly what they are dealing with.

For instance, Seachem Prime states on the bottle:

DIRECTIONS: Use 1 capful (5 mL) for each 200 L (50 gallons*) of new water. For smaller doses, please note each cap thread is approx. 1 mL). This dose removes approximately 0.6 mg/L ammonia, 3 mg/L chloramine, or 4 mg/L chlorine. May be added to aquarium directly, but better if added to new water first. If adding directly to aquarium, base dose on aquarium volume.

So unless you know what the concentration of chloramine (or chlorine) used in your tap water, or have a test kit that will give you an accurate reading of these compounds, it's still pretty much 'by guess or by golly'.

Seachem sells a test kit that will test for both free & total ammonia, http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/MTAmmonia.html

and they also sell 'ammonia alerts' that use the same principle for testing for 'free' ammonia. You simply stick one on the inside of your tank, and if you do get am ammonia spike it will show up almost immediately. (within 15 minutes)

http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pa...moniaAlert.html

I use both products, along with a water conditioner that was designed to safely bind large amounts of free ammonia, so dealing with chloramine has never been an issue for me.