Poor Water Quality

[Tanker]

Hi.

I have read in several places about the additional rain in the area changing the water quality, and especially the increasingly poor Calgary/S.Alberta water quality... but no one seems to be offering much advice on what to DO about it.

I can taste the chlorine in the water in Calgary... the past few weeks it's gone up considerably, and I guess the easiest thing to do is just ask outright:

Should we be increasing the amount of water conditioners we are using for water changes, and if so, by how much?

I would gladly add more AquaSafe to combat the chlorine levels, but without knowing a few things.. I am rather reluctant. As well, what risks are there to adding 'too much' AS or conditioner in general? I have heard about "over sliming" fish... but at what doses will that happen?

Has anyone done the math on the recent tap water quality? I am going to go tomorrow and buy a chlorine test so I can see this myself... but if someone somewhere else is already running the same tests, then I see no point in effectively doubling the work.

I am going to endevour to test the tap water six times: Once right out of the tap, after 24 hours with an airstone for circulation, with the recommended dose of AquaSafe; the recommended dose of Prime; then adding AS until the chlorine shows zero; and finally the same with the Prime.

These conditioners will have you believe (since there is NO documentation elsewhere to clarify) that they work "instantly" to combat the chlorine in the water... I hope to also run some tests to find out what the 'actual' time frame is for the treatments to fully do their job.

Or has someone done that, too?

I guess I feel the need to not only know WHAT I am doing to the water, but the need to also understand the time frames involved. If my fish will be getting a little shot of chlorine each water change whereas waiting 10 minutes for each bucketful to completely nuetralize will make a serious difference... wouldn't that be important research for the entire community?

[Amigoid]

>Hi.

Hey there

>I have read in several places about the additional rain in the area changing the >water quality, and especially the increasingly poor Calgary/S.Alberta water >quality... but no one seems to be offering much advice on what to DO about it.

>I can taste the chlorine in the water in Calgary... the past few weeks it's gone up >considerably, and I guess the easiest thing to do is just ask outright:

>Should we be increasing the amount of water conditioners we are using for water >changes, and if so, by how much?

Well I have started doubling the amount of Prime I would normally use. The instructions do say that up to 5 times can be used with no ill effects.

>I would gladly add more AquaSafe to combat the chlorine levels, but without >knowing a few things.. I am rather reluctant. As well, what risks are there to >adding 'too much' AS or conditioner in general? I have heard about "over >sliming" fish... but at what doses will that happen?

As I said above I use Prime, not Aquasafe so I can't speak to what that product would do.

>Has anyone done the math on the recent tap water quality? I am going to go >tomorrow and buy a chlorine test so I can see this myself... but if someone >somewhere else is already running the same tests, then I see no point in >effectively doubling the work.

I've never seen a Chlorine test kit that I can recall... Should be interesting.

>I am going to endevour to test the tap water six times: Once right out of the tap, >after 24 hours with an airstone for circulation, with the recommended dose of >AquaSafe; the recommended dose of Prime; then adding AS until the chlorine >shows zero; and finally the same with the Prime.

An interesting series of tests...

>These conditioners will have you believe (since there is NO documentation >elsewhere to clarify) that they work "instantly" to combat the chlorine in the >water... I hope to also run some tests to find out what the 'actual' time frame is >for the treatments to fully do their job.

I don't know about instantly, but they do also say that if you are adding it to the tank instead of the bucket, that you must dose as if to tgreat the entire tank.

>Or has someone done that, too?

>I guess I feel the need to not only know WHAT I am doing to the water, but the >need to also understand the time frames involved. If my fish will be getting a >little shot of chlorine each water change whereas waiting 10 minutes for each >bucketful to completely nuetralize will make a serious difference... wouldn't that >be important research for the entire community?

Yes I think so... on the other hand I've also never had trouble when doing water changes so I don' know if it matters that much.

Len

[Tanker]

It is a known fact that even trace amounts of chlorine, added to a tank for even a short time, will affect the bacteria and nitrogen cycle in the tank. As I mainly deal with tropical fish and plants, I am concerned with balance. Simply dumping in a bucket of tap water and then shooting in a pipette or three of conditioner would seem just a little ridiculous at best.

As for you never seeing a chlorine test... they are rare in the fish keeping world, yet rather popular in the pool/hot tub industry. There is a test available from Jungle that is a chlorine/chloramine dip test designed specifically for aquarium use. I will be going to five LFS in search of a liquid test kit that will test the lowest range, for the most accurate results. Failing that, I will simply pop into Polar Spas and pick up whatever they have that would suit my purpose.

Thank you for your constructive comments.

[Vallisneria]

I have no clue about this but couldnt' you just call the water company and ask how much more chlorine they are adding?

[Tanker]

I had certainly considered that, but I am becoming more and more curious as to whether we all are adding enough conditioner currently, or possibly maybe we were adding too much before?

The AS bottle says 5ml per 10 gallons... maybe only 2ml is really 'needed' to off the hazardous levels... and all this time people have been throwing their money away for no reason other than a lack of research and education... and buying into the propaganda. After all, it's simply good business sense to convince your customer they need to over use your product...

Mostly I wanted to know if someone had done this yet, and if not, I am stepping up to the plate... I am convinced it's research like this that can only better the community as a whole, and we all (well... those of us who are fish nuts with an affection for science, at least) should be doing our part to advance the community, instead of just 'reading the labels'.

I'm not the 'read the label' kind of guy...

[Vallisneria]

RD did something similar and posted it here

[midgetwaiter]

It is a known fact that even trace amounts of chlorine, added to a tank for even a short time, will affect the bacteria and nitrogen cycle in the tank. As I mainly deal with tropical fish and plants, I am concerned with balance. Simply dumping in a bucket of tap water and then shooting in a pipette or three of conditioner would seem just a little ridiculous at best.

You are way off on this.

Until recently I haven't used a water conditioner in 3 years. I suspect that even with the increased amount of chlorine I've noticed lately it is not really a big deal. Chlorine is naturally a gas, any disturbance in the water at all will cause it to out gas very quickly.

I top up my taks directly from a pyhton, I have never had any problem. I do water changes this way as well with my FW tanks, the SW ones I do with buckets so I can mix the salt.

[midgetwaiter]

I should have mentioned, if your water source is treated with chloramine (eg Edmonton) rather than chlorine it is important to use a good conditioner whenever adding water.

[dunl]

Chlorine is naturally a gas, any disturbance in the water at all will cause it to out gas very quickly.

I beg to differ. I think I would only believe that if I saw a lifeguard at every pool continuously dumping chlorine in on a non-stop basis.

[RD.]

Public pools, spas, hot tubs, etc are dosed every day with rather large amounts of chlorine, and by the end of the day you don't want to know how much bacteria is still alive & well in some of those pools. :shock:

I've ran numerous tests on the water in RD, but chlorine is not the issue here, the ammonia left over after the chlorine & ammonia split (we have chloramine here) is what I'm looking to neutralize. With Prime I need to use double the recommended dose in order to safely bind all of the 'free' ammonia (during normal tap water conditions), during times such as this, I would expect I would need to use at least 3 times the dosage that's recommended by Seachem.

With ClorAm-X, I am currently using a slightly extra amount of product at each water change in order to handle any potential spikes in chloramine. I've read a few times where people using Prime went overboard with the amount they used during a water change (one was an accidental spill) and they wiped out their tank. I can't say with certainty that it was the Prime that caused the fish to die of sudden toxic shock, but the people involved were convinced that was the case.

If I lived in an area that only used chlorine to treat the tap water year round, I wouldn't waste my money on AquaPlus, or Prime, I'd be buying Sodium thiosulfate in bulk. (which is the active ingredient in AquaPlus)

[dunl]

Public pools, spas, hot tubs, etc are dosed every day with rather large amounts of chlorine, and by the end of the day you don't want to know how much bacteria is still alive & well in some of those pools.

True. My point was that I can't see chlorine dissapating from water very quickly simply from a disturbance, before it affects the health of the fish.

My concern with treating simply for chlorine would be that many of our friends to the south have had chloramine added to their water source without their knowledge....killing off entire tanks.

[RD.]

My concern with treating simply for chlorine would be that many of our friends to the south have had chloramine added to their water source without their knowledge....killing off entire tanks.

Oh, I agree. You best be talking to the head tech & make damn certain you understand what they use, and don't use, year round, before choosing a water conditioner.

BTW - the vast majority of the horror stories you read about people having entire tanks wiped out by their water treatment plant switching to chloramine during the summer months, and the fishkeepers using a conditioner that only treats for chlorine, are total nonsense. In an established tank, an ammonia spike would have to be a real whopper (seldom seen in chloramine use) in order to cause instant toxic shock to fish. Over time, yes, constant exposure to ammonia can weaken the immune system, especially in tanks that have higher pH, such as found in most of our tanks. But instant death from a small spike, not very likely.

Keep in mind that until I mentioned Seachem Prime to James last year, not a single LFS in RD sold water conditioners geared for chloramine. Every last container of water conditioner sold in RD was sodium thiosulfate based, yet I never heard of tanks being wiped out on a weekly basis, including the tanks at the LFS's in town.

In the majority of those cases I would suspect it was something other than chlorine/ammonia that caused the toxic shock, such as a spike in heavy metals.

Some of the water mains in the US are over 100 years old, and made from lead, and although conditioners such as Prime state they will remove heavy metals (or at least safely bind them) in reality no water conditioner truly 'removes or binds' excessive heavy metals, they only handle the amount of heavy metals typically found in tap water. (in other words, trace amounts in the low ppb range)

That info came directly from Dr. Greg Morin of Seachem, and John Farrell Kuhns, the inventor of AmQuel. Prime actually removed the "removes heavy metals" statement on their Prime containers, although Dr. Greg Morin did tell me last year they would be adding it back, with a slight caveat to that claim.

Unlike chloramine, chlorine starts to dissipate the moment it leaves the treatment plant, so the further away from the source that you live, the less total chlorine you will have in your tap water. If you live on the outskirts of the city, at the furthest point from the plant that feeds your area, chances are that even in times such as this you have nothing to worry about unless you are performing very large scale water changes.

My best advice during periods such as this, would be to keep your water changes at a max of 25%, with smaller more frequent water changes being the safest route to go. For extra insurance, use a water conditioner that also safely binds ammonia, which rules out products such as AquaPlus. The best liquid formula, Seachem Prime, the best dry powder formula, ClorAm-X.

[HOSStile]

You guys had me curious so I tested the water with a pool testing strip. I show in Riverbend SE water...Free Chlorine of about 1.5 ppm Ph about 7.8 and total alkalinity of about 150. Of course this a with a test strip but I found without adding chlorine our pool would gas off chlorine in a couple of days max. As far as conditioner I use cut down pond dechlorinater. I found a bunch of the stuff on clearance which diluted would fill 5 8oz. bottles at aquarium strength. Not bad for $2.99. It also claims to have benificial bacteria in it but I am not going to culture it to find out. As far as adding conditioner I add the appropriate amount and then add water with python. Out of literally hundreds of fish... I have only lost a few fish to accidents, marital squabbles or what I attribute some fish getting bored with life and endeavoring to experience existence on another plane.

Oh BTW I posted this before, this is about Calgary Water

http://content.calgary.ca/CCA/City+Hall/Bu...atment+Tour.htm

Edited June 25, 2005 by HOSStile

[RD.]

As far as conditioner I use cut down pond dechlorinater. I found a bunch of the stuff on clearance which diluted would fill 5 8oz. bottles at aquarium strength.

Just an FYI ........ most (if not all) pond dechlorinators contain the exact same formula, at the exact same strength, as aquarium formulas.

Seachem explains why this is in their FAQ for Pond Prime.

http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/PondPrime_faq.html

Q: I am using Prime (not Pond Prime) for my weekly 10% water changes in a 1200 gallon pond. I do not have a way to dechlorinate the water outside of the pond, so I have to add the fresh water (with chloramines) and Prime directly to the pond. Do I base the required Prime quantity on the volume of the pond, or the amount of fresh water being added? Does a UV sterilizer have any interaction with Prime? What is the advantage of Pond Prime vs Prime?

A: Prime and Pond Prime are the same product even though the dosages are different. Based on the dosage, Pond Prime will treat more only because a pond is more of an open system and chlorine has a better opportunity to naturally gas off hence needing less product. If you are having to dechlorinte your water going directly in the pond without having the ability to dechloriante before hand, I would definitely base the dosage of Prime/Pond Prime on the total gallons of the pond. Not just the amount of water changed.

Q: What is the difference between Pond Prime and Prime? Do I have to buy both for my aquarium and pond? Can I use either product?

A: The products are actually the same. However, the instructions are different. Given that most pond are more of an open system compared to a typical aquarium, chlorine tends to gas off more readily in a pond in effect having to use less Prime. The dosing instructions are as follows:

- for aquarium use, 1 ml per 10 gallons

-for pond use, 2 tablespoons per 600 gallons

[HOSStile]

Interesting definately requires more research. I am not using prime but I can see what they mean by easier disappation in a pond. I usually run my tanks with the lids open, and evaporation is not a problem because I do very frequent water changes. I was told on another thread that pond dechlorinater was higher strength so what I will do is this. I have a 10 gal. that I have to break down. I will fill it with tap water, measure free chlorine, give it the appropriate amount of conditioner usually 5ml. and retest every 5 minutes. I am thinking that this empirical data can best be obtained with liberal use of rye and coke during the 5 minute waits. You didn't think I could be totally serious through a whole post did you? I will let you all know.... Harold

Edited June 25, 2005 by HOSStile