k9outfit Posted January 28, 2006 Report Share Posted January 28, 2006 I'm trying to lower the pH in a Ram tank, so I've been useing RO water, and adding peat. This knocks the ph in the RO water down to around 6.2. So, it was suggested I boil the peat, and someone else suggested I pour hot water over the peat, and let it stand. So, I boiled a pot of water with a good chunk of peat, then let it sit over night. The results are not possible, yet.... I tested the water before I started - peat soaked, but not boiled. pH was 7.4. Then after having boiled the water (but still hot) the pH was off the chart on the regular chart - therefore, well OVER 7.6. I thought maybe the heat had affected the testing fluid, so I tried again this morning, just to make sure. Again, the reading was no different than last night... well OVER 7.6. So, I did a high range pH test. Straight tap water tested at around 7.6; and the water with boiled peat came in at... 8.2 How is this possible???? :well: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunl Posted January 28, 2006 Report Share Posted January 28, 2006 Calcite from the pot you used? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9outfit Posted January 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2006 (edited) Stainless steel pot; no obvious or visible residue. Edited January 28, 2006 by k9outfit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunl Posted January 28, 2006 Report Share Posted January 28, 2006 Sorry, no clue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvision Posted January 28, 2006 Report Share Posted January 28, 2006 That is strange, indeed! What's your source for peat? Tho, it really shouldn't matter, long-term, but if it isn't pure peat, it may have some calcium or other hard elements in it. Over time, these hard elements should be bound up, and your pH should go down. How's the coloration of the water? Peat should stain the water, which would make reading a titration pH kit rather difficult. If it isn't leaching tannins (which are a natural mould inhibitor), then it may be leaching the hard elements that are bound in it.... That's just a guess, tho. But, it does make sense, chemestry-wise. Are you using GAC in your tanks? It will remove the tannins from the water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyL Posted January 28, 2006 Report Share Posted January 28, 2006 Actually it's not strange at all... Basically it has to do with the buffering capacity of the water, because you're using pure RO - it has absolutely no buffering capacity - thus it has no ability to 'hold' it's pH thus it will swing radically - or give a false reading on pH tests. If you were to cut it 3/4 RO with 1/4 local tap, then try again, you'd see much different numbers. And no, don't boil the peat - just let it soak with an airstone/powerhead for flow. Like boiling veggies - you'll loose a significant amount of the 'good' stuff from the peat by boiling it. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arixonbarnes Posted January 29, 2006 Report Share Posted January 29, 2006 I put mine in a hunk of nylon stocking, throw in some marbles for weight, tie both ends and deep six it into the tank - otherwise you can put it in your filter (peat pellets work well too). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9outfit Posted January 29, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2006 (edited) Thanks for the replies. I boiled the peat, about a tennisball size chunk in a piece of nylon stocking, in a potful of straight tap water. This same hunk of peat has been used effectively on RO water for some time already. It's only this potful that the pH went up on, instead of going down like it was supposed to. This morning I took this same glob of peat, and used it to lower the pH on RO water for a water change (down to 6.2 with the RO water)! Anyway, guess I'll just stick with the tried & true. At least I know THAT works. Hate to waste water, so maybe I could use that boiled peat water for my Africans? So maybe that pot was grubbier than I thought? Eeeeewwww! :tongue: Edited January 29, 2006 by k9outfit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelle31 Posted January 29, 2006 Report Share Posted January 29, 2006 Hmmmmm I have to agree here with Andy!!! RO and peat eh? Then boiling? WTF mate? RO is supposed to be neutral at 7.0 PH is it not? Pure RO is supposed to have very little shall we say "crap" in it. So adding Peat to RO is gainning you what? Waht PH are you lookin for? You are gonna ended up havin a crash is my guess. I can't really understand this logic. Why would you boil the Peat in the first place. All I ever did was hang it in my water barrel and left it there. Once in the tank it didn't much change the PH to lower values anyways. Big waste of time IMO. Use the RO with tap water to get more accurate readings. I've bred Discus for 6 years and have been here and done all this. Been here with Rams too. KISS Keep It Simple Stupid best method I ever used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyb440 Posted January 29, 2006 Report Share Posted January 29, 2006 (edited) My thoughts are that by boiling the water you've altered your carbonate buffer, so that it now buffers at a different pH. Edited April 25, 2006 by nyb440 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvision Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 I suggested boiling the peat b/c IME dry peat takes a LONG time to start 'doing it's thing' in an aquarium. Tho, maybe I wasn't clear that is just needs to be boiled to the point that it'll sink on it's own. Peat is great for more than just lowering pH - the high Cation Exchange Capacity is what gives it this properties. It exchanges hard cations (ie. Ca++, Mg++, etc.) for various carbon compounds refered to as tannins. Peat more softens the water than lowers pH... these two effects often happen at the same time, which is why we usually just refer to one or the other (ie. hard water generally has high pH, soft water generally lower pH). The tannins are what color the water, and are reported as being a natural fungicide. There are dwarf SA breeders that use RO w. peat, and drop the pH to the 5s! Some species LOVE this. It's not the pH that makes RO a problem for fish and other wildlife, it's the fact that there are no electrlytes. The tannins from the peat help maintain life-sustaining capabilities of water, even at very low pH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9outfit Posted January 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 I suggested boiling the peat b/c IME dry peat takes a LONG time to start 'doing it's thing' in an aquarium. Tho, maybe I wasn't clear that is just needs to be boiled to the point that it'll sink on it's own. That is what I was going by, but since water costs us a ruddy fortune (we have it hauled), I didn't see there was any point on just ditching the water. Figured I'd make use of it in the tank. Anyway, thanks for all the comments, people! Learned alot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyL Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 I'm not arguing the benefits of peat, or of cutting with RO... Both have their own place... Basically Pelle and I are trying to suggest without being arrogant and Smokey like, that running pure RO isn't smart. RO has little/no Mg or Ca in the water, these two elements combine to create the buffering capacity in the water. Buffering capacity is what allows the water to hold a steady pH, with no buffering capacity it takes very little outside influence to cause a radical and uncontrolable pH swing. I kept a variety of dwarf cichlids, and I did use RO/DI and peat to make life more comfortable for them. But I kept the Mg/Ca levels around 50ppm - which allowed me to keep a very rock solid 6.2 pH using simple methods (ie peat, and CO2 injection). With pure RO peat or not, you'll find the tank almost impossible to keep stable. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelle31 Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 Basically Pelle and I are trying to suggest without being arrogant and Smokey like, that running pure RO isn't smart. LMAO Andy!!!! I remember a few good battles over the Peat and the benefits and the rest of us are stupid!!!! Funny how who can breed and who can't though!! :guns: Like I said Peat was a pain in the A**. I would rather cut my tap water with RO and have the headaches be gone. If I want my discus to raise babies them selves I cut with RO to keep the hardness down. PH I could care less about and to be honest I haven't tested for PH in about 3 years. Softness is where it lies for the fertile eggs. And if I raise babies myself its pure RO til free swimming and they can eat live baby brine shrimp then I throw them all into a 10 gallon tank with tap. Then onwards and upwards as they grow. Do the same with Angels. Peat is too risky and too much of a headache to get right. Why spend all that time doing that when you can simply use RO and get to enjoy your fish more rather than testing and putzing around with water. Like I said been there done that and RO works the best for me. But if peat is what you like all the best to ya!!! Its all good!! Whatever floats your boat!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyb440 Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 Actually, this isn't 100 % correct. A buffered system is of value in an aquarium, but Mg and Ca do not have anything directly to do with the buffer themselves. Mg and Ca are associated with high pH water because they are frequently matched with bicarbonate (HCO3-) or carbonate (CO3-2) as counterions. I am only talking about pH effects here, hardness is a different concept. Look at it this way, in order to have a buffer, you must have chemical species that can gain or lose a proton (H+). The pH that the buffer will "maintain" is dependent on the ratio of the concentrations of the protonated (e.g. HCO3- in the above system) and deprotonated form (CO3-2) of the buffering species in the water. The buffering capacity is dependent on the concentrations of these species; in other words how much acid/base can you add before you convert the species making up the buffer to one form. This is an interesting thread. The original post looks like it could be a fairly evil second year analytical chemistry exam question, hehe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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