snowflake feeding question for eel keepers..

[dunl]

Any reason I shouldn't feed my snowflake eel only pellets if he will eat them?

Thanks,

Dunl

[dunl]

bumpasaurus....

[JSTR]

No reason at all, provided they are decent pellets.

The eel will prefer some variety, but a good pellet is nutritius enough to sustain an eel.

[RD.]

Why would there be? Any marine fish that will accept pellets is a bonus.

Paul, a good quality pellet will do far more than offer enough nutrition to 'sustain' a marine fish, it will actually provide far more overall nutrition than any fresh/frozen food ever could. Watch that Lionfish of yours over the next 12 months, and you'll see it with your own 2 eyes.

[dunl]

At no point was I looking for this to turn into another NLS ad.

I was wondering if a crustacean-eating eel like my snowflake needed more than the nutrition contained in pellet form, such as the shells that come from crustaceans. Also, there's the fact that pellets aren't exactly an engaging "prey".

[RD.]

You asked a question, and I answered it to the best of my ability. If you'd like me to go into detail, I will, if not, I won't. What does 'engaging prey' have to do with anything, unless it's something you prefer for your own self gratification? I don't think you'll find any pellet eating carnivores that are withering away from the lack of catching live prey.

[dunl]

If you'd like me to go into detail, I will, if not, I won't.

I'll pass, thanks.

Anyway, back to the eel keepers....is there any reason eels need anything else in their diet? ie. Shells from crustaceans? And as a predator, do they need to be kept engaged, or are they just opportunistic feeders?

Thanks. :beer:

[RD.]

For the sake of anyone else reading this thread, and wondering the same thing as you .......

I was wondering if a crustacean-eating eel like my snowflake needed more than the nutrition contained in pellet form, such as the shells that come from crustaceans.

If you are referring to the chitin & chitosan found in the exoskeletons of crustaceans, these are found in pretty much any pellet food that uses krill or shrimp as a raw ingredient in the formula. The following link should help explain things in more detail.

http://www.aquafeed.com/article.php?id=439&sectionid=5

So once again, the answer would be no, and I certainly don't need to keep eels to be qualified to respond to your question. I also never mentioned NLS, I was referring to pellet foods in general, as the same response would apply for any decent commercially made pellet food.

Hopefully the info above will assist you while you're waiting for the rest of the resident experts to respond to your question.

[JSTR]

Anyway, back to the eel keepers....is there any reason eels need anything else in their diet? ie. Shells from crustaceans? And as a predator, do they need to be kept engaged, or are they just opportunistic feeders?

The only crustacean predators that I have read about that really need live or frozen foods are the puffers. And the shells are just a easy way to trim down the continuous growth of their teeth. I have never come accross this in my research on eel keeping. If the eel will accept non live/frozen foods then it makes life easier on yourself and the pocketbook. (have a freezer with more frozen fish foods than foods for me).

A personal opinion, I believe any captive animal that was once in the wild - needs and enjoys the thrill of the hunt from time to time. Its only natural and inbred into their genetics.

This is what I meant by any quality pellet can sustain an animal, just like Kraft dinner and hot dogs can sustain us. (Just cant see myself having that same meal everyday).

As for my lionfish - this is an experiment, not to discover if one can maintain and have thrive on pellets but to see how hard it would be to train one over and then just to monitor the results over time. I have a very good Idea as to what the results will be, but wanted to try it and document the changes and such. One thing I m also monitoring is the effect of not having that primal need to hunt removed, seeing if it makes the fish lethargic or anything.(like a lionfish is really that active to begin with). Ultimately I would like to remove the frozen foods from my freezer and have all my tanks on the convenience of processed foods. A personal experiment and one I have enjoyed trying, out of over 30 fish I presently only have two that will not eat processed foods, but all are on frozen.

HTH

Edited May 5, 2006 by JSTR

[RD.]

This is what I meant by any quality pellet can sustain an animal, just like Kraft dinner and hot dogs can sustain us.

Sheesh Paul, talk about a pizz poor analogy.

Kraft dinner & hot dogs in a humans diet, in no way compares to the quality of some of the premium pellet fish foods currently on the market. As far as fish getting bored with the same food .... I think fish keepers need to look at this with more logic, and reason, and not with human emotions. Fish aren't capable of being 'bored' with the same diet, that's a human trait, and not something that relates to fish. As long as the food is highly nutritional, tastes good, and stimulates a feed response, they will eat. Fish also aren't capable of knowing which food is more nutritionally sound, so the fact that they prefer one food, over another, should never influence a fish keepers choice of foods. Yes it's true that some marine species will simply refuse any type of commercial food, pellets or flakes, but if the fish is already eating pellets, then there is simply no nutritionaly sound reason why one needs to add fresh/frozen food to their diet.

[dunl]

Fish aren't capable of being 'bored' with the same diet, that's a human trait, and not something that relates to fish.

It'd be great to see some proof to back that up. That's like saying that animals can't enjoy one type of food over another.

[JSTR]

Now this may sounds like I am a activist (Iam not), but it is simply my opinion. Nothing will change it and please don't take this the wrong way, but I am way to stubborn to change now. All prior points made are in fact valid and somewhat relivant to the topic of this thread. Enough political correctness - here's what I really think. :

Now the point I am trying to make in reguars to predatory fish. It is not the nutritional value of the pellets in question (there are many, I personally only use one kind). Its the boredom factor associated with the inability or lack of neccessaty that will remove the thrill of the hunt from the game. Nowhere is there solid proof (that I know of or have read) as to the fact that predators get lazy and lethargic in captivity. Yet in captivity they lose the activity of the hunt and as a result, I believe, some of the normal characteristics of the animal in question.

My personal observations, I feel that my lionfish is now leas active overall since I no longer include live feeder fish in its diet. The color of the fish is great and as a matter of fact the fish looks healthier now, but is also less active. These are preliminary findings, as anyone following the thread on Canreef about my lionfish experiment, will know, I only started the full changeover to pellets three - four weeks ago. This will be an ongoing thing in which I will try a few different methodologies. (But enough on that here).

And if you prefer a better analogy, substitute 1 boneless, skinless chicken breast & 1 cup white rice & 1 cup mixed vegetables for Kraft dinner and hot dogs. The chicken meal is much more nutritious (actually recommended by alot of nutritionist), but I still couldn't eat it everyday.(Thats why I weigh more than I would like, damn weaknesses).

As to not further highjack this thread. If anyone would like, I can start a new thread and add the results of the various experiments I a trying on my predators as well as the great success and growth to my reef tank fish. All one has to do is ask.

Thanks

Edited May 5, 2006 by JSTR

[RD.]

That's like saying that animals can't enjoy one type of food over another.

No, it's not.

Boredom, or ennui (pronounced "on-we," this French word comes from Old French enui, root of the English word 'annoy') is a reactive state to wearingly dull, repetitive, or tedious stimuli: suffering from a lack of interesting things to see, hear, etc., or do (physically or intellectually), while not in the mood of "doing nothing". Those afflicted by temporary boredom may regard the affliction as a waste of time, but usually characterise boredom worse than just that. ...

The main triggers for feed stimulation in fish are, sight, smell, and taste. If after close to a decade, a fish still eats a commercial food with the same amount of enthusiasm as it did when it first began eating that food, would you consider it bored? If it passes on pieces of fresh squid held at one end of a tank, and chases down every last pellet at the other end of a tank, would you consider it bored? If they rush the top of the tank & send water flying before you can close the lid, are they bored with their food?

I would think not.

Of course fish & animals will show a greater feed response to some foods more than others, which is usually due to the foods palatability, and yes, sometimes due to the stimuli of live moving prey, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with incorporating some of these foods into their diet, nor have I said that there was, ..... but that's not what the original question was in this thread.

It was;

Any reason I shouldn't feed my snowflake eel only pellets if he will eat them?

Nowhere is there solid proof (that I know of or have read) as to the fact that predators get lazy and lethargic in captivity. Yet in captivity they lose the activity of the hunt and as a result, I believe, some of the normal characteristics of the animal in question.

In some predatory species I will concede that this may in fact be true, but I seriously doubt that it would make a large difference in the overall behavioural traits of a snowflake eel kept in captivty, in a 48" tank, especially if one is only offering up dead, frozen food. Quite frankly, as Darcy as already experienced first hand, in a case of a mixed tank, it might be best to not bring out some of these natural predatory feeding traits.

Edited May 5, 2006 by RD.

[midgetwaiter]

People have a natural tendency to anthropomorphize with their pets, it's understandable as it is similar to the way we relate to each other. You can see similar characteristics in other social mammals (like dogs) and in a way as these are often our fist exposure to non human animals it tends to reinforce itself accordingly.

I don't think you can ever quantify something like an animal requiring variety in foods or enjoying the hunt without viewing it through the framework you use to make sense of yourself. In many ways this really complicates the task as our own culture is so far removed from depending on our basic hunting and gathering instincts that you'd almost have more trouble understanding yourself than the fish.

I haven't noticed any behavioral changes in the predators I have transitioned to pellet diets. They are far more interested in the pellets than even live inverts, to the point that I am able to maintain starfish in a puffer tank and have for some time. Every fish is going to be different though, an ambush predator like an eel may have a very different response if you can get them eating pellets. I'm pretty interested to see what JSTR's lionfish is going to be like in a year or so.

The only health concern I would have is the teeth, a snowflake eel is built to grind so you may find that the teeth or jaw develops problems. That pretty much a guess though and probably a bad one, I can't find any information about maintaining an eel on pellets. On the other hand, you will certainly see benefit in water quality and associated issues.

[dunl]

The main triggers for feed stimulation in fish are, sight, smell, and taste. If after close to a decade, a fish still eats a commercial food with the same amount of enthusiasm as it did when it first began eating that food, would you consider it bored? If it passes on pieces of fresh squid held at one end of a tank, and chases down every last pellet at the other end of a tank, would you consider it bored? If they rush the top of the tank & send water flying before you can close the lid, are they bored with their food?

I would think not.

Not bored.....but I think "conditioned" would fit in there.

And yes, the teeth were another issue I was concerned about also.