midgetwaiter Posted August 2, 2006 Report Share Posted August 2, 2006 (edited) The notion of an 100% unbiased moderator being required is silly, it's just not a situation that warrants it. Someone who is reasonably honest would suffice. If I were to find myself the moderator slot and come a cross a negative submission on my store I'd much rather post it and respond anyway. Of course you can find counter examples just about anywhere, even here when the Big Al's stuff got out of hand some of the moderators were IMO the worst offenders from a common sense / decency point of view. Even with moderated submissions the idea still doesn't work though. I think you can narrow it down to two basic issues, we have unreasonable expectations for our LFS and we tend to make unwarranted assumptions. There is a wonderful example of the unreasonable expectations to be found locally. There is one LFS I can think of that does an outstanding job in a few key areas. They tend to stock really good gear even though the stuff doesn't sell very quickly and their margins probably suck on it. They also have a great approach to handling their livestock, using very costly quarantine procedures. You can occasionally find cases where people compliment them on this but the majority of comments end up b*tching about their higher prices. You can't have it both ways. I'll use an anecdote to illustrate my view about the unwarranted assumptions as well. There was a thread about my store on another forum and a member posted saying he had recently seen a Blue Tang that was in bad shape in a tank that was to small, etc. He took this observation and decided that the store was not taking care of the fish well and that the overall quality of the livestock was bad. The thing he didn't know was that someone had given us the fish in that condition a few days previously and we didn't have a bigger tank available for it at the time, we were doing our best with the situation. I don't want to single this guy specifically, he seems like a decent guy, I think it's more an example of the problems in the hobby's culture. The basic assumption is that stores are greedy, incompetent and don't care about their livestock. There are examples of this kind of behavior but I think it is very rare, especially in independent shops. I can't think of the last time I was in an small store and saw something that I knew was the result of malfeasance or obvious neglect. When people expect to find things like this in the LFS they will find it, they see a situation like the one above and assume it is an example of what they are looking for. The reason that a vendor review section can't work is that we as hobbyists make bad reviewers. Without a serious shift in attitudes it will never work. Edited August 2, 2006 by midgetwaiter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melody Posted August 2, 2006 Report Share Posted August 2, 2006 I can see both sides of this one as clear as day, and I must admit that a few bad apples can ruin something like this very quickly. Even competition can join and trash. I do like the mod interference idea. My suggestion for someone who is as unbiased as possible would be to pick an outsider, and no, I'm not volunteering...lol. If the person lives elsewhere and has never been to the store and also doesn't know the local members well, its easier to be unbiased. The person would still have to be chosen with care to ensure that they have the right qualities and a willingness to learn the basic legalities, but I think it might work. It would need strict guidelines for both the submitters and the mod. Maybe you could trade off mod's with another distant forum - you moderate mine, I'll moderate yours. As a buyer I think it could be invaluable. But I have to ask myself, would I do it if I owned the forum? Would I want it as a moderator donating my time? Nope. <sheepish grin> Well that was a big help to the discussion I'm sure...lol...I'll just sit over here on my fence and sing instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanker Posted August 2, 2006 Report Share Posted August 2, 2006 I have settled (after trying four different programs out) on a online survey system I am happy with. Over the next month I will build the questions and we'll run it the month of September, with results in the first week of October. If we cover this every three months, we'll have a VERY valid and UNbiased (mostly... it's anonymous, in the least) system where everyone can see the rankings a store received, and in some limited fashion, why they scored that high or low without personal feelings influencing the votes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Seahorse Posted August 2, 2006 Report Share Posted August 2, 2006 My 2 cents worth from a newbie. I think the idea of a vendor review is a good idea, but I also know that people say things when they are mad that they really do not mean. It happens all the time, when we get mad at a loved one we say the stupidest things out of frustration! If we do that to someone we love, imagine how nasty post could get about a store or person we don't really know................... We are entitled to our opinion, but we don't have to air it on a forum, to start more arguements................. if you have a problem, deal with it. Take a friend with you to the store and see what can be done to fix the problem. We also have to realize fish are a living creature, they stress, they get sick and they even die. Hard to judge someone because they get a bad shipment, or a stressed out tank of fish. And yes things do change, let each person make there own opinion, make ther own choice of what stores they don't want to go to. The store will suffer financially if they do not treat there customers fairly, they will go elsewhere. Skip the vendor review, but encourage vendors to sponsor this site and post what comes in, as some already do. Sure would save a lot of leg work, (even though looking at fish stores is fun!) and give us an idea where to go when we are looking for certain things. This is such a great site, everyone is so helpful and friendly. Lets not let our own personal opinions cause the site to loose its appeal as a great place to learn and grow. I am sure we could find another topic to post about, that would be more benificial. I am on this site to share my love of this awesome hobby :thumbs: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunl Posted August 2, 2006 Report Share Posted August 2, 2006 The only thing I have to add about doing any kind of moderation on something like this is that whether it is biased or not is strictly in the eyes of the reader, same as judicial decisions in the court system. The anonymous survey sounds good...I'll look forward to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Roth Posted August 2, 2006 Report Share Posted August 2, 2006 (edited) Don't bother. Seems some people have taken it upon themselves to dance around the vendor review rule anyway. Edited August 2, 2006 by Michael Roth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melody Posted August 2, 2006 Report Share Posted August 2, 2006 I think that if it is going to be done, the voting system is a great idea. Worth a shot anyway. The worst that can happen is that there isn't enough participation for it to indicate a trend in one direction or the other, but at least it won't tax the moderators or get nasty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ichthyosporidium Posted August 3, 2006 Report Share Posted August 3, 2006 I am new to this community and I think you guy's are doing a great job. I can see the the reasons for concern is justified. With what you propose, with a survey/voting program and a good, objective set of questions, you should have a pretty fair system. As far as posting personal comments, I would say as long as it is made clear that the comments presented on the site are purely the reflection of said individuals and in no way of this site, i'ts moderators, etc. the site should be safe. However, opinions tend to cloud fact. Personally, I would keep out comments and use just a rating system on each criteriacle question presented to the reader. All in all, I can't hardly wait to have another good reason to travel and visit stores around the province, spend a little money and soon, give an honest opinion. Nothing gained, if nothing ventured. Cheers to all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edmguy Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 unbiased moderator....... some one who doesnt work for any lfs...... some one who understands the legality of it all....... some one who wants people to get a fair review of the lfs out there some one who is willing to stick there neck out for the group.... some one who is willing to got to a diffrent pet store every sun to post a review of that store. after said individual rates the store....people can add thier 2 cents......said moderator will then edit negative posts to keep the opinion voiced in a nice polite legal manner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vapor Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 unbiased moderator.......some one who doesnt work for any lfs...... some one who understands the legality of it all....... some one who wants people to get a fair review of the lfs out there some one who is willing to stick there neck out for the group.... some one who is willing to got to a diffrent pet store every sun to post a review of that store. after said individual rates the store....people can add thier 2 cents......said moderator will then edit negative posts to keep the opinion voiced in a nice polite legal manner This was tried in the past and turned into nothing constructive whatsoever. You had people slagging stores :pff: , store employees slagging us members :pff: and even members slagging members :pff: . Not a pretty site :poo: . Can't say that I miss it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunl Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 Like I said before, it's all in the eye of the beholder. And everyone beholds things differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midgetwaiter Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 I'm curious about something. I made a few points above about hobby people being unreasonable, something I expected to be rather contentious, I at least expected some reply. Should I take this to mean that people agree with me or that nobody thinks it's worth talking about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunl Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 Probably both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ichthyosporidium Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 (edited) I can understand where Midget is comming from and rightfuly so. Being a former operator of a LFS, I have been subject to the same assumptive attitudes. I remeber once that another LFS was telling people that our tanks were too pristine and that it was this pristine condition that led to their fishes' death. Why those customers went to another LFS when they bought them elsewhere is beyond me. I only remeber the severe frustration of having to quash that sitation. It was not the first and it wasn't the last either. However, I learned from that situation and utilized that new information to my advantage, rather than getting into a war of words, I set up aquariums side by side and kept one the way we normally kept our tanks and then kept the other one to the way the other LFS maintained theirs. I put up a sign that stated "which one would you buy from?". When people asked me what it was all about, I explained it to them and kept notes on both decisions and comments. I adjusted my practices. I baisically upped the trust factor by printing leaflets that I gave out to customers reasurring them that any problems, no matter how light or severe, that they should not hesitate to call us. I set up a 24 hr answering service which was used well by my customers and I made quite a few more customers with that service. The point I am trying to make is that all you LFS owner/operators could use this as a very effective tool to better run your store and not as a personal attack on character. Midget pointed out a situation that occured in his/her store, about a customer walking in and seeing a fish in "rough shape" and reporting unfairly because they did not find out the reason for the fish to be in that state. That was unfortunate that the situation occured. However, you can take it as a personal attack and wallow in it, or use the information to better your store's operations. After that incident, I personally would have made it a point to quarrantine and or hold fish that are not in show condition in a place that is not visible to the public eye. There, you have now dealt with future problems of that nature from ocurring. Like it was mentioned earlier, this won't work if atittudes don't change. Edited August 5, 2006 by Ichthyosporidium Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edmguy Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 that is exactly what im talking about....thank you Ichthyosporidium........finally some one who takes it for what it is.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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