Ethics of live food

[Ichthyosporidium]

I decide to start this thread in response to another thread so it wasn't being hijacked.

Live food, most of us have fed this to one pet or another.

Weather it be a mouse to a snake, crickets to a frog, fish to other fish. It is arguably an interesting way to simulate natural feeding, which brings out a very primitive and basic response for many creatures we keep and in some cases it is the only way.

Now, It is has been argued that the organisims used for food, are being tourtorously handed their fate. Yes, it is true that some predators do not instantly kill their prey, but for the majority of predators, they hand out the feeder organisim's fate in less than a blink of an eye.

Life, no matter what it's allocation, deserves respect and appreciation. It doesn't matter if it is an apex predator, primary producer, or even a decomposer. All organisims deserve equal respect. For example, Cyanobacteria are the oldest know organisims to inhabit the earth (oldest fossil records date back to around 3.5 billion years). They are also microscopic and very annoying when I have to clean my reef tank's glass because of it's prolific nature. I appreciate and respect this group of organisims because all of us would not be here right now if it was not for this simple, little bacteria. Why you ask? Well, before these bacteria, the earth's atmosphere was not hospitable to life as we know it. It was cyanobacteria that engineered our atmosphere so life could progress right to this day. Here in Alberta, we should appreciate cyanobacteria even more as cyanobacteria are responsible for much of the oil and gas we use and prosper from.

When you see life for what it is and it's reason to exist, your respect and appreciation for life increases.

We are dependent on the diversity of life that this planet offers as it all works togeather to create life as we know it today. We as humans, having being gifted with highly cognitave reasoning have a responsibility to ensure that respect and dignity to all forms of life is given untill it's purpose here is fufilled.

I have been asked by many people as to how I can use live food for feeding many of my pets I keep even with the level of understanding (which is not much) of this planet and the interaction of organisims that make up daily life here on Terra. I see feeder organisims for what they are, food for other animals that eat living organisims. Just like I feed decaying vegatable matter to my African fire millipedes, I feed live insects, adult, sub-adult, or larval, to many of my pets at home. I also feed some feeder fish to some of my marine inhabitants. I feed worms, crustacea and insuforia to those creatures who normally consume similar food in the wild. Although these organisims that I offer have a short time to live, I still give them the best home and care possible.

Why should we handle and give the best care for the live foods we use in this hobby? Aside from the ethical aspects, you put out only as good as you put in. The quality of foods, dead or alive, should be of concern to the hobbyist. Lets face it, if you offer sickly, malnourished and just simply abused live foods on a regular basis, you are increasing the likelyhood of having sickly predatory fish, frogs, snakes, birds, or whatever prefers to eat live foods, or any food for that fact. True, predators do pick off sickly and injured prey in the wild, but we as humans do not have to be a contributing factor in this equation. Mother nature is brutal enough.

For those of you who do not agree with the use of live food, remember that any food you feed your carnivores, omnivores, and even herbivores (plants are alive too) have organisims that were killed to make the food and the respect for all that give up their life for another to continue sould be a given, no matter what form it happens to be in.

An act of simply not supporting a buisness who carries out unecessary suffering to any animal is a good start. Also, educating those who are unaware of the situation but can make a difference, such as the owners, the media, or even the person who is actually carrying out the acts to which suffering is incurred, is a good start.

[Cap'n]

Good post. Well thought out.

:thumbs:

[Qattarra]

I support live food feeding in the same way I support breast feeding our infants. It's simply the best way. I mostly feed pellet food to my fish but do also supply newly hatched brine shrimp and young convict fry.

I've always been amazed as to "dog people" or "cat people" will go out of their way to find a lactating mother (dog/cat) to save their new babies(pups/kittens) when their animal is unable to care for the young. Yet when it comes to humans they view the same natural process as "disgusting".

I prefer my meat charbroiled as to raw, but I've yet to see BBQs underwater. My fish absolutly love their raw treats.

Edited September 17, 2006 by Qattarra

[Vapor]

I agree with live feeding as long as it is done for the right reasons. If it is done solely as a form of entertainment so your buddies can howl with excitement as your starved pirhanna or snakehead or reptile goes in for the kill then it is wrong and you as the owner are wrong. If it is done strictly for regular feeding purposes then I don't have a problem with it.

[Green Seahorse]

Well since I kinda started this complaining about a store

employee roughly handling feeder fish, I guess I

should say I have nothing against feeding live foods

as long as it is done with respect for that animal,

and as Vapor said not as a form of entertainment.

As long as we respect and treat these feeders with

respect . They too are animals left in our care, so

we should take care of them and treat them fairly.

We feed live crickets, but the crickets have there own

cage and a good food source,egg carton, dirt to dig in

and cricket gel, and it is cleaned often. The reptiles

they feed make short work of them and they are

cared for in a favorable environment before being

used as food.

What everyone feeds their animals is up to them

I just wish that employee had used a bit more respect

for the fish he was handling...........Yes I will complain.

[cichlidkid]

not as a form of entertainment.

I like watching my salvini stalk and take down feeders, its quite a thing to see.

so im a bad person now.

oh and by the way, I dont really respect fish that are going to be food, feeders that go into ponds are a different story. Think about it, when someone is Executed they are often dehumanized, called an animal and such. it is easier see something get eaten or killed if you dehumanize and dont care about it. So why in gods name would I want to think of a fish that is going to be brutaly chomped as a "little person"

NOTE:

this is not to say that I handle feeders rough, customers dont like that.

Edited September 17, 2006 by cichlidkid

[Ichthyosporidium]

not as a form of entertainment.

I like watching my salvini stalk and take down feeders, its quite a thing to see.

so im a bad person now.

Let me put this into perspective.

You feed fish that you know will take a long time to be killed so you can enjoy the kill that much longer when you know that you could feed white cloud minnows or other small feeder fish instead.......

I am not the one to judge here but when you know there are better options (which I am assuming you do)than the one you choose just to appease your self-indulgence....Think about it anyway.

oh and by the way, I dont really respect fish that are going to be food, feeders that go into ponds are a different story. Think about it, when someone is Executed they are often dehumanized, called an animal and such. it is easier see something get eaten or killed if you dehumanize and dont care about it. So why in gods name would I want to think of a fish that is going to be brutaly chomped as a "little person"

The last time I checked, there was no captial punishment for fish, crickets, worms, etc. So what is your point?

I am not talking about emulating human attributes to an animal or plant here, I am just saying that you should recognise life for what it is an act accordingly to which I hope that most people do.

[Vapor]

I like watching my salvini stalk and take down feeders, its quite a thing to see.

I agree, but are you starving them first? That was the point I was trying to make. I have gone on other forums where people talk about not feeding their fish for days just because it is more fun to watch them attack when they are starving.

[cichlidkid]

no I dont starve my fish.

and call me a bad person or whatever. I dont give a flying f&%# about fish that are going to be eaten.

Let me put this into perspective.

You feed fish that you know will take a long time to be killed so you can enjoy the kill that much longer when you know that you could feed white cloud minnows or other small feeder fish instead.......

who the hell said I feed them large fish? thats gross, I dont want fish bits floating around the aquarium. In the wild salvini will eat fish that will fit in their mouth.

oh and as for quick and and painless for little fish, are you aware of how ca cichlids eat? the right size feeder will have the tip of its tail sticking out. the rest of it is being grinded an munched by the teeth-like things in the cichlid's throut. my festae was sucking on my umbee for about 5 minuts before I pulled the umbee out and uthanized it.

Edited September 17, 2006 by cichlidkid

[cichlidkid]

that being said I dont feed my fish feeders on a regular basis, only about once a month, and then I quarantene them and feed them the highest quality food possible (gutloading).

feeding feeders straight from the store can be deadly as they ofter carry fungus or ich or parisites and a bunch of other good stuff.

[Ichthyosporidium]

oh and as for quick and and painless for little fish, are you aware of how ca cichlids eat? the right size feeder will have the tip of its tail sticking out. the rest of it is being grinded an munched by the teeth-like things in the cichlid's throut. my festae was sucking on my umbee for about 5 minuts before I pulled the umbee out and uthanized it.

I was raising cichlids when you were still soup in your daddy's n~!$, so yeah, I am familiar with the way many CA and SA cichlids eat as with the way a great many others do also. It is just the way you protayed your first post. Anyway, you are entitled to feed your fish the way you see fit. I am in no way trying to persecute people for the choices that they make, just planting seeds of thought is all.

[edmguy]

feeding live fish is as natural as rain. eventhough we have them captive in a man made environment i have a lot of wild fish and i think its unfair to feed them "man made food"(with the exceptioin of NLS)for them to be brought out of the wild put on a plane and then in my tank. all i try to do is simulate where this fishes come from to the best of my ability. so i see no reason not to feed live foods....imagine the zoos feeding tigers by throwing in a live gazell dont ya think that tiger wont be so depressed about being in captivity?

[skinless]

i use homegrown convict feeders for a good treat. nothing wrong with that.

it allows me to keep my pair chugging along without really having to deal with the mass fry that goes with the tank. and i'm even aware that most fish don't require live feeders, at all. many 'live food only' fish can be weened/starved off of feeders and probably be fed better. or so it seems

[FishBrain]

OK so I feed live fis to the animals in my hose that will eat them (turtles, Fish, crayfish) and I also feed manufactured food for them. Not only that I freeze fish to be made into food for these animals, some think its wrong and some think its ok. I think it is a full matter of opinion and as long as there is no inhumane actions then all should be good. Right?

Great topic BTW

I would say more but everyone else has already said what I would

[Krystle]

I was raising cichlids when you were still soup in your daddy's n~!$

-roll-

I think I'm in love with you!