firestorm Posted July 15, 2008 Report Share Posted July 15, 2008 Hey guys, I am having troubles figuring out what is going on with my discus. I have had discus for about 5-6 months now, and usually they have been doing fine. Lately though I have noticed some of them seem to be getting skinnier, and don't eat as much, these guys were the healthiest and biggest eaters of them all. And it appears that the slime coat is coming off them in some parts and hanging off from them. I stopped using salt so much in all my aquariums because I feel the long term affects can be worse. I have not done anything different than I usually do. I recently about a month ago had a devastating thing happen in my tank, and to this day I still believe it was fish TB that caused so many deaths. My 2 WC discus I have had for a few months now, and they still will only eat blood worms, I tried all kinds of other methods to get them to eat, they just won't. I always do weekly wc's of at anywhere around 25%-50% in the discus tank. I have been wondering however how sensitive these guys are to pH changes. They are in my planted tank, where I have CO2 being put in. Nothing major, in a 90 gallon tank I have 2 hagen CO2 yeast systems, and one DIY pop bottle system. The CO2 levels never go over so there is too much CO2, but I was wondering about at night. The plants do not use up CO2 at night, causing the concentration of CO2 to increase in the tank and making the pH go down. I know they prefer lower pH to begin with anyway. But does anyone think it has something to do with this? Any help would be great, I don't want to end up killing such beautiful fish. If you need the stock list I will be more than happy to put it up here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drydock Posted July 15, 2008 Report Share Posted July 15, 2008 Parasites in your bloodworms??? Any photos? Hey guys, I am having troubles figuring out what is going on with my discus. I have had discus for about 5-6 months now, and usually they have been doing fine. Lately though I have noticed some of them seem to be getting skinnier, and don't eat as much, these guys were the healthiest and biggest eaters of them all. And it appears that the slime coat is coming off them in some parts and hanging off from them. I stopped using salt so much in all my aquariums because I feel the long term affects can be worse. I have not done anything different than I usually do. I recently about a month ago had a devastating thing happen in my tank, and to this day I still believe it was fish TB that caused so many deaths. My 2 WC discus I have had for a few months now, and they still will only eat blood worms, I tried all kinds of other methods to get them to eat, they just won't. I always do weekly wc's of at anywhere around 25%-50% in the discus tank. I have been wondering however how sensitive these guys are to pH changes. They are in my planted tank, where I have CO2 being put in. Nothing major, in a 90 gallon tank I have 2 hagen CO2 yeast systems, and one DIY pop bottle system. The CO2 levels never go over so there is too much CO2, but I was wondering about at night. The plants do not use up CO2 at night, causing the concentration of CO2 to increase in the tank and making the pH go down. I know they prefer lower pH to begin with anyway. But does anyone think it has something to do with this? Any help would be great, I don't want to end up killing such beautiful fish. If you need the stock list I will be more than happy to put it up here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestorm Posted July 15, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2008 (edited) Do you think it could be parasites? I have not seen any other signs of them, so what would you suggest? I have some metriandizole left, I could mix some in with their food. I am out of blood worms, so I can get some fresh ones and try that out. But it doesn't explain the slime coat coming off, this has been happening for a while now, then it got better and now lately it has been happening again. No photos, but I can take some. Edited July 15, 2008 by firestorm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestorm Posted July 15, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2008 (edited) Oh and I forgot to mention they are all darker in color, which to me means there is something going on that I need to get to the bottom of. There are no abnormal poops from what I can ever tell. And they sometimes do a weird twitching of either their whole body or their fins. I don't think that is normal. I hate to think I have done something completely wrong for them, and caused this. Edited July 15, 2008 by firestorm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Posted July 16, 2008 Report Share Posted July 16, 2008 Oh and I forgot to mention they are all darker in color, which to me means there is something going on that I need to get to the bottom of. There are no abnormal poops from what I can ever tell. And they sometimes do a weird twitching of either their whole body or their fins. I don't think that is normal. I hate to think I have done something completely wrong for them, and caused this. I hate to be a jerk, but go back to our original posts about discus from 4 months ago: - you have kept discus with other tank mates - you have kept them in overstocked tanks - you have kept them in planted tanks with gravel which is notoriously difficult - you only do one water change a week (I do 4-6) - you have not quarantined new fish I don't know how many of these are still true, but they all add stress to the fish. What has happened is that your discus are showing a general breakdown from being kept in a less than ideal environment for too long. As they are stressed for longer periods of time, they become susceptible to more diseases. The dark color and lower appetite is a reaction to stress. Even if you have not seen clear string poop, internal parasites are still doing their work. The twitching is a result of stress and likely external flukes. The only thing you can do to try and save your fish is give them an ideal environment and let them try and heal on their own. Give them an adequately sized bare bottom tank. Crank the temperature over a week to 88-90 F. Change 75% of their water daily with treated water at the same temperature (no there is no ph issue with Calgary water unless you are messing with the PH, but I did have better luck in Calgary ageing my water for 24 hours). With luck you can save half of your discus. People can diss experienced discus keepers for being anal about these things, and you can probably do some of these things and not have problems, but if want to be succesful with discus there is one proven way and many ways that can be less succesful. With my first discus I thought - this is overkill I don't need to do all this, but it ends in heartbreak and I feel very bad for you. If you want to see the results of stressed fish - look at the fish in Dalray's photos for sale. The discus being kept with African cichlids are showing many signs of stress and early disease. So it is not unusual to make these kind of errors keeping discus. Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geleen Posted July 16, 2008 Report Share Posted July 16, 2008 (edited) Sorry to hear this. I agree with Kevin. large daily water changes for at least a month are likely the only way to save these fish. I would start out with 25 % twice a day for 2 day's then 50% for 2 day's, then as Keven suggested;DAILY 75% for at least a month Later on you can do a little less. Please ensure aged and same temperature water! PH changes for domestic fish are not required. Twice a week 50 - and -75% is an absolute minimum as far as I am concerned for healthy adult fish. If you have a substrate, bi-weekly, deep vacuuming is a must. Wipe down the glass on the inside weekly. The reason I have for the slower start is to let them get used to the lower levels of dissolved solids gradually. Also I have found that PURIGEN in the filter makes a difference for me. I would not treat with drugs until the water has stabilized first. You can try digging up a few earthworms, rinse and chopped a bit and see if they eat live worms. I feed live,red wrigglers weekly. Success . John Edited July 16, 2008 by geleen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestorm Posted July 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2008 No offense taken. Actually I have been QTing all of my fish I put in the tank for 3 weeks before adding them lately. The substrate is sand, and all the other fish in the tank are still so small, except the angels and rams. So you don't suggest keeping the bolivian rams and ghost shrimp in with them? They were the only fish I was planning on keeping in the tank with them. I am waiting for the new tank to cycle before removing the rest. I also plan on taking most of the plants out and putting them in the other tank as well. But is it ok to keep the sand in the tank? In the future I was also wanting to buy a school of cardinal tetras for dither fish. How do you recommend I age such a huge amount of water? It is a 90 gallon afterall. I will start doing the water changes, and I will wait a couple of days to crank the temp, so I can let the other tank cycle and then I will do that. Thanks for the help, I really do appreciate any input. I however would never ever keep them in with africans. I want them to be happy and live good lives. I respect your advice because you do know more about keeping discus than I. I will try and do everything I can that you have suggested, but I might keep a few of the current fish in with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Chicklets Posted July 17, 2008 Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 If you want to age your water get a 45 gallon plastic barrell, a sufficient sized submersible heater, an air pum and airstone. set it up and you will have an economical water aging system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestorm Posted July 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 If I go through all that trouble I may as well hook up my RO/DI unit. Unfortunately I have never found the time to put the thing together and install it. If anyone is willing to do it for me we can work something out. I will try to get a large garbage pail, sanitize it and put those things in as soon as I can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Posted July 17, 2008 Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 I found that 55 gallon water barrells (for storing rain water) from the hardware store to be ideal. They are hard and will not fold like a garbage can. They also have drains near the bottom of them so if you can raise them up in a stand, you can gravity feed out of the water barrel. I have been running 75% water changes straight from the tap for 2 months (with prime) and seeing no negatives. But I am in Invermere and the water seems to be slightly more stable (.2 change in PH vs .4 in Calgary). My opinion is that do whatever you can to change the water. What is imperitive is that the water termperatures stay the same (within 1 degree F). I would take out the sand and the plants until everyone is healthy. Healthy discus in a bare bottom tank look much better then unhealthy discus in a planted tank. Master discus in a barebottom before you try 1 pair in a 90 gallon planted. Please feel free to PM me with questions, or PM me your number and I will call you to help you through this difficult time. I have been where you are and I know how much it sucks, hopefully we can turn it around. Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geleen Posted July 17, 2008 Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 "I have been running 75% water changes straight from the tap for 2 months (with prime) and seeing no negatives. But I am in Invermere and the water seems to be slightly more stable (.2 change in PH vs .4 in Calgary). My opinion is that do whatever you can to change the water. What is imperitive is that the water termperatures stay the same (within 1 degree F)." Unfortunately not so in Edmonton grrrrrrrr!!!!!!! Ph is stable enough, but too much compressed CO2 The dissolved gases will strip the slime coat while refilling;it comes off in large chunks. Aging is required here. J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestorm Posted July 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 Wow I never knew that tap water could be so harmful. I figured if I used conditioners that was enough. Makes all the more reason to hook up my RO. My issue is that I don't want to hook the RO straight to the water lines, I only want to be using for my fish, which will save me from having to buy more refills for it. I will look into a rain barrel then, I do have one on the side of my house for rain, so I do know how they work. I always make sure to test the temp of water before adding it, and usually is within a degree or 2. So I did a 50% wc last night, and another 50% wc change today without aged water. I would rather get a container and age the water before I do anything over that. The fish are looking quite a bit better with their color. I will start working on getting things transferred over to the 40 gallon (plants and things), then put the fish in. I just don't want to have a large spike in the 40 gallon from not letting it cycle, and adding too many fish too soon. I will remove the angels first, and will move the rest over slowly so that the tank can establish enough bacteria to handle the bio load. Then I will try taking the sand and everything else out. Thanks for your help guys, I think once I get the other fish out and keep up with frequent water changes the discus will probably do better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish_Frenzy Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 For water changes, I just set up a 50G tank with a heater and an airstone and a Aqua Clear filter runnning without media and thats what I use for water changes. It's perfect because it is situated between 2 Discus tanks! LOL! Tammy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestorm Posted July 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 Haha, yeah if only I had a tank to spare. I only have a 10 gallon used for QT, so I definitely don't think that's sufficient. But that is definitely a great idea. I did manage to take some plants out and put them in their new home. I will take out all the tetras first and put them in the 40 gallon for a couple of days. If they don't die i'm sure the tank will be fine for some larger fish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestorm Posted July 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 (edited) Alright, I have decided to do something big. I have 2 90 gallon tanks, the one the discus are in, and another one I keep africans in. Unfortunately the tank the africans are in would be better suited to keep the discus in, and vise versa since the current discus tank has more foot space then the other one. Besides that the african tank has gravel, which will be easier to remove, and the discus tank has sand, which is better for africans to begin with. So what I am planning to do, since the water parameters are the same in both tanks, and ideally the fish would be better suited for each others tanks, I want to switch the fish into the other tanks. I have been doing daily wc's on the discus tank like you suggested, and have been slowly moving some of the fish into other tanks as well. Once I can get all the other fish into other tanks, I will then start to take down the african tank, put them all in buckets, and remove absolutely everything from the tank. It will be easiest and less stressful for the discus to be moved directly from tank to tank, rather than me putting them in buckets as well. I probably won't do this whole reno for at least another week and some of the discus start to improve. They have been improving in color and behavior from all the water changes, so it is only a matter of time the others start to eat. In the snow white discus, the one that looks the most ill, I saw some white poo coming from her yesterday, and she doesn't really eat, so I suspect internal problems. I defrosted some brine shrimp in tank water, and added some garlic guard and some metronidazole to the food. I let that sit for about 1/2 hour then poured the medicated food into the tank. She would bring food into her mouth, but spit it back out. I am hoping that by doing so she was able to ingest some of the meds off the food. The other fish ate it quite well. Hopefully this will also help make the fish feel better. Unfortunately I don't have any spare tanks to QT her separate from the other fish If you have any suggestions I am open to anything thanks!! Edited July 18, 2008 by firestorm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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