JohnRosario Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Hi Guys I'm sorry if this has been asked before. I did look around before posting, but I did not find anything on the issue. I have a 50 Gallon tank stocked with 5 small discus, 4 guppies and 10 small angel fish. The angel fish have dime size bodies and the discus are about the size of a 50 cent piece. The temperature is 83-85F The tank is planted and I use florite as a substrate. For a filter I use a Fluval 304 set at a medium flow rate. The water was originally 80% distilled water and 20% conditioned tap. I feed my fish 3 times a day blood worms and sinking pellets. There is little to no ammonia in the water. I have noticed that my water takes wild swings in pH. I test daily and I have noticed that my pH has changed from 6.4 on Friday night to 8.2 tonight. Friday night my fish's breathing seemed a little labored and it seemed like some of the fish were swimming near the surface of the water so I added an air stone. I understand that O2 and cO2 directly affect pH. Am I on the right track when I assume that the added O2 in the water is causing the pH to become more alkaline? Does the Hardness of water affect pH swings? Does anyone have any recommendations on water conditions to keep happy discus? Thanks in advance for you reply John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rED O Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 It seems like you have not cycled your tank. Did you cycle your tank? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parachromis1 Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Our water doesn't change that easily, do you have an addatives in your water? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveDude77 Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 (edited) From what I've read O2 and CO2 do affect your pH but shouldn't that drastically. The more CO2 in the water, the lower the pH (more acidic), and vice-versa. Water hardness, or KH (Carbonate Hardness, not General Hardness), only effects how much CO2 is required to lower the pH. The KH acts as a buffer making it harder for the pH to change. Now thinking about your problem, what is your water hardness? Using a lot of distilled water may give you a very low KH in that may allow your pH to swing like that. Take note: I'm only about 3-4 mths into this hobby so I may be wrong. Please someone correct me if I'm wrong. Edited November 12, 2008 by DaveDude77 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbemis Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 I am no expert either but I agree with Davedude, by using RO water there are little buffering agents in the water. Test you KH because this is probably having a bearing on your pH. I am sure there are many people on the board that keep discus that can give you some more helpful advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnRosario Posted November 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 My tank has been running for about 6 weeks. I think the tank is cycled Last night I turned off the air stone and I tested the pH this morning, it read about 7. Has anyone else had similar problems? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
werner Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 O2 does not affect the pH of the water; CO2 does. When CO2 is added to the water it forms carbonic acid which lowers the pH. Even if you're not adding CO2 (as some people do for planted tanks) it is being produced by your fish. Your plants will produce CO2 during the night and consume it during the day. In a planted tank, there can be a natural swing in pH from day to night. How heavily is your tank planted? Measure your pH in the afternoon and middle of the night/early morning (if possible) to see if there's a large swing. Do you have a KH test kit? With 80% distilled water you will have very little buffering capacity in the water. It will also be used up from the biological processes in the tank. A very low KH cannot completely buffer the acids in the water and you can get rapid and drastic pH swings. I believe there are several products out there (like Seachem's Discus Buffer) that can help maintain your water within proper parameters. The laboured breathing of the fish could be a result of either high CO2 or low O2. Warmer water holds less O2. More aeration will help to get sufficient O2 into the water from the atmosphere. Also, if you have a lot of plants producing CO2 at night, the additional aeration will help it escape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvision Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 My experience with discus is that younger discus do well in water that is harder than needed for breeding. YOu may want to slowly increase your ratio to 50/50 distilled to tap. This will help keep your pH swings down as well. Werner mentioned that some products may help keep your tank parameters more stable, I have always liked the Seachem line - they put a lot of research into their products. Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnRosario Posted November 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 My tank is very heavily planted. Does the Seachem Discus Buffer, harden your water? What is the best ratio of Edmonton City water and R/o for optimum discus growth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishkabod Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 From what i understood The buffer should increase the KH of the water. There are two types of Hardness KH and GH KH is Carbonate Hardness GH is General Harndess Here's a link that should help with muddleing through the GH KH PH Relationship. Water Chestry Basics of GH KH and PH Also Seachem=good research=usually the best to buy I'm not a discus keeper but i did my research. Hours and hours of no joke fun intersting research on fishkeeping and any related topics including water chemistry. Discus are intersting but PH alteration was too daunting a task for me right now so good luck. I would also test for NitrAtes which is the final product from the Nitrogen Cycle and takes a long long time to develop the bacteria for and the NitrAtes do seem to build quickly. I'm pretty sure it's an Acid so that might be a possible cause. Get a freshwater mater test kit and a GH and KH test if you plan to keep discus and you sholuld be able to quickly diagnose the problem yourself rather than a guessing game. I'm sure you'll figure it out. hope i helped Lisa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
werner Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 I would also test for NitrAtes which is the final product from the Nitrogen Cycle and takes a long long time to develop the bacteria for and the NitrAtes do seem to build quickly. I'm pretty sure it's an Acid so that might be a possible cause. Nitrates will be pretty much non-existent in a heavily planted tank, since the plants will be sucking up the ammonia/ammonium, nitrates and nitrates that the fish produce. Nitrates are not acidic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callie Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 I have never had a problem with erratic ph swings but i do know alkalinity of the water at 7.6 + makes ammonia (nh3) highly toxic. Ph levels will not create ammonia it will only toxify your already existing ammonia. when PH hits 6.8 or less ammonium(nh4)is found dont worry this is not toxic. I am surprised your fish were not killed 6.4- 8.2 in Ph is an 18 units from friday to tuesday, most fish (but not all can only handle between 1/2 -1 unit a day in PH change. Now keep in mind soft water is not stable compared to hardwater setups. It is not uncommon for soft water to swing or crash in Ph this is because soft water does not have enough buffer to maintain the PH. You said that you use distilled water, is this correct or are you usings RO water this would be more logical. if you are making your own Ro water your membrane may have failed. If this is not the case and you are using distilled water check your source, your water may not of actually been distilled or done properly. First things first check your water hardness and go from there. as well keep your tank clean these changes can create a post "new tank syndrome effect". You also mentioned having plants in the tank the co2 will not effect water hardness but will drop your PH because co2 releases carbonic acid. Did you previously have co2 hooked up to your tank and if so did you turn it off, or did it possibly malfunction, this would be why your PH went way back up. If this is not the case take a look at your plants what kind of plants do you have, different plants release and absorb different amounts of o2 and co2. they also release these gasses differently some releasing small amounts consistently and others in blobs periodically. and how healthy are your plants if your plants are healthy then they can do there job absorbs fish waste and nitrates, along with nutrients, co2 and oxygen. If they are unhealthy your plants can not absorb and release what they need. How is this related whether you add co2 to your tank or not it will be there your fish create it. now think about it your plants are sick they cant absorb much including co2 then leaving the co2 sitting around in the water, you said you turned on an air stone this rapidly drives off the co2 making your PH raise. If you have algae in your tank do your best to remove it this will take in the nutrients in the water faster then your plants can. Im not sure what kind of test strips or solutions you are using but double check them and depending on who makes them depends on quality, for sensitive fish and non evident problems find an accurate test solution such as master test kit. I say this because some are only "close to" marking and are not accurate they only leave with an idea (close estimate of what you are looking at. And how many time have you found that you test strip never actually matches up with the colors on the package, lol keep in mind do not use PH adjusters I have never used them but I have been told by those that have they are a waste of time and will not change your pH it will just go back to your tap level. I cant remember why Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callie Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 OPPS I POSTED IT TWICE- SORRY THE SECOND ONE HAS CORRECT SPELLING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvision Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 OPPS I POSTED IT TWICE- SORRY THE SECOND ONE HAS CORRECT SPELLING Fixed One thing I have learned thru almost 20yrs in the hobby and almost a degree in biology, pH swings aren't as dangerous as we have been taught. In nature, pH swings are quite common. However, pH in our aquariums is often an indicator of other characteristics of water (ie, high pH aquariums usually have high alkalinity and hardness). If the pH swing is due to a change in alkalinity and/or hardness, our fish are in trouble b/c this will put a lot of stress on their osmotic balance (cells & organs can rupture). HTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callie Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 I like your wording... rupture, but I do agree with you. You mention ph swings in nature this can go with anything parasites etc. This is because of the volume of water. the ratio of pathogen to water is large difference or even water fluctuation there is more water so it does not become as drastic. Thats why it is easier (yet more expensive) to take care of a 200 G vs a 20 G. For all those who are new to this realization if you have 100 bacteria cells in a 10 gallon tank you have a problem, but if you have 100 bacteria cells in a 100 gallon tank than your fish are likely to be okay... THIS IS JUST AN EXAMPLE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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