Lana Bollers Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Okay I have done a lot of research and I am still unsure what is the best Spirulina product out there. I have heard praise on the HBH super soft Spirulina as well as the super soft krill... Where is the best place to buy it, price and quality wise? How many of you make your own "seafood" for your fish? If so what do you use and how do you ensure you are not giving them parasite ridden food...when feeding fresh food such as shrimp, mussels, cod etc.... What all do you feed for greens? I know this is a huge topic to take on, but it will be helpful to not only myself but to others on the list. I just hope I put it into the correct section. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RD. Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 While this may seem self serving, perhaps this will help answer some of your questions regarding spirulina, etc. http://www.cichlid-food-canada.com/narticle.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Ram Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 I'm a big fan of Ken's Tropical Fish Food in the states. There are many varieties to choose from depending on the species of fish you are keeping. The flake food comes in large bags for a very reasonable price. I feed my tropheus and my africans different flake from him and they are thriving. If you need his contact info, send me a PM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vallisneria Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 I used to feed a variety of different foods("spirulina" flakes, home made foods etc) but now I just use NLS. All my tanks, from africans to community, get NLS. They are all looking great, breeding like crazy and its easier for me since I dont' have 2-3 different foods to worry about. I also sometimes feed my africans duckweed. I usually feed about a net full each week. They love the stuff! I also feed my BN plecos and africans veggies like zuchini,and cukes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lana Bollers Posted January 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Great thanks for the info Valerie, and Blue Ram. I did find the kens site, but as I said I just thought the food with spirulina would have a lot more protein content to it... I have heard good things about his feed, and that it is the best quality you can buy. I have also gone to the hbh site, however kens site provides a lot more info on the products believe it or not. I did have powdered spirulina here for a horse that had heaves, not sure how that would work in the tank and I am pretty sure I don't want to find out...LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RD. Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Lana, what species are you looking to feed a spirulina based food to, and why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lana Bollers Posted January 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 African cichlids (Lake Malawi & Tanginika) and I am feeding it to them, because it is part of their natural required diet... More specifically, Electric yellows borleyi cobalt blue red empress lemon jake electric blue c.moorii dolphin kipili fronts burundi fronts I think that is all of them... I just want to purchase the best quality which led to this post.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RD. Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 I believe that I read where you stated that you are feeding NLS, if so, your fish don't require any additional spirulina in their diet. (NLS already contains an ample amount of greens, including spirulina) The vast majority of fish, including those in your list, cannot assimilate large amounts of this raw ingredient, and while they may eat it their growth & overall health will be affected in a negative manner if the inclusion rate is too large. Hence the reason why I posted a link to that article in my previous comment. (to save my typing fingers lol) BTW - the safest way to feed fresh shrimp, cod, mussells, etc, is to purchase those that are flash frozen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lana Bollers Posted January 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 How do you know if they have been flash frozen... I didn't read the article yet, I will read it when I get home, trying to complete expenses and checking posts here...LOL I do feed the NLS, I am on the frontosa board, and after reading some of the diet posts, I am so confused on what I should be doing... I was trying to obtain more protein for the one front that is ill, but at the same time, give all the fish a nice snack... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RD. Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Ok, I was wondering if it was your sick fish that brought this on. Whatever is taking place internally in that fish, is definitely not diet related, and is no fault of yours. (as someone else had alluded to) Sometimes some fish are simply genetically weak specimens, and in the wild mother nature would resolve the issue in short order. It may turn out that nothing you do will bring this fish back to health, it happens. If someone on another forum is suggesting to feed additional spirulina, they are way out in left field, and have no idea what they are talking about. Other than the phytoplankton gut loaded fish they consume in the wild, cyphos don't even eat greens in their natural habitat. (at least it has never been recorded) If you are looking for some solid info from fellow frontosa keepers, IMO this is the best frontosa forum on the net. http://www.cyphos.com/forums/ As far as protein, don't get overly hung up on the protein % found on fish food labels, the only protein that truly matters is the protein that your fish are able to digest. Below is a cut & paste job from a comment I made on this subject a few months back on another forum. There seems to be a lot of confusion regarding the crude protein percentage found on fish food labels, and hopefully I can help clear this matter up for anyone that doesn't understand how these numbers come about. Percentages on labels are for the most part simply numbers that someone wearing a white lab coat have come up with via an in-house analysis. As an example, the crude protein % is nothing more than the total nitrogen content found in the food, it doesn't tell you anything about the amino acid content, the overall quality of that protein, or even the total digestibility of that protein. (as in the protein that your fish can actually assimilate) An old leather boot would appear as "crude protein" on a pet food label. In other words it is impossible to judge the quality of one food over another by simply comparing percentages found on a label. This is precisely how/why melamine ended up in dog & cat food, and why no one caught it at first. Melamine has a high nitrogen content, so when the in house labs analyzed the raw ingredients imported from China, the protein % (nitrogen %) appeared to be of high quality. Yes, the nitrogen reading was impressive, but in essence the actual protein content was not. The nitrogen/protein percentage was artificially inflated by a substance that eventually proved to cause serious health issues in many pets. In tropical fish food, there are a number of raw ingredients that can also inflate the overall crude protein percent, yet in reality add only a small portion to the total digestibility of the total crude protein. As an example, most large predatory (carnivorous species) that have been studied within the aquaculture industry seem to only be able to assimilate approx 20% starch. If too much starch is added to the formula (which is quite common in many pet foods ie; dog/cat/fish food) then the growth & overall health can be affected. With grains & grain by-products being much less costly than marine based proteins, some pet food manufacturers will utilize as much of these less costly ingredients as possible. Soy based starch is quite often used to boost the total crude protein (nitrogen) content, with some of these raw ingredients showing as high as 90% crude protein. The problem lies in the fact that for many species of fish, only a small percentage of that 90% crude protein can actually be utilized by the fish. If a fish food label shows a crude protein percent of 48%, but only 50% of that crude protein can actually be utilized by the fish, a more accurate reading for that food would be a total digestible protein reading of 24%. As larger carnivorous species mature, the less protein they require in their diet for growth & normal metabolic function. Of course many hobbyists are under the impression that the more protein the better, no matter what stage of life their fish is at. This is simply not true, and can ultimately lead to less than optimum water quality in ones tank. While many species of fish are capable of using a high protein diet, in some cases as much as 50-60% of that protein may be excreted into your aquarium water. Most nitrogen is excreted as ammonia (NH3) via the gills of the fish, with only approx 10% being excreted as solid waste. In other words, most of this wasted protein will never be visually seen by the hobbyist. Your tank water may look crystal clear, but if your fish could speak they'd be telling you differently. This is precisely why I tell consumers to forget about the numbers on the labels, and focus on the raw ingredients that make up those numbers. Look for high quality marine proteins comprised from whole units, such as krill, herring and squid, etc, and not generic fish meal that is often times sourced from processing plant waste. (these foods often have high ash content due to bones, scales, etc) Keep an eye on the amount (or number) of grain/starch ingredients listed, and especially be aware of companies that split-ingredient list their items, such as corn flour, corn middlings, and corn starch. Combine all 3 ingredients, and sometimes the food contains more corn than anything else! Last but not least, no manufacturer in their right mind is going to hand all of their proprietary information over to the competition on a silver platter, and note that on fish food labels, the crude protein percent is listed as (Minimum) not maximum. In some cases the crude protein (nitrogen) can be used to deceive (such as in the melamine fiasco) and other times used to simply keep the competition at bay. In the end the only protein that truly matters is the amount of total digestible protein, as in the amount of protein that can be utilized by your fish. HTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lana Bollers Posted January 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Yes it was that entire remark that has kind of got me thinking about how I care to my fish... I know when I first joined here I was redirected to NLS and seachem products, which I use faithfully. I thought I was doing everything right until that remark, and my fish starting to look like a bi-afrin... I started to second guess myself and started to research what everyone was feeding, then I thought well maybe I am doing something wrong... maybe I should be feeding more raw diet then just the NLS... I guess a lot of second guessing has started to take place, and because I care so much about all my critters I try very hard to do right by them, even if it does break the bank... I have also looked into obtaining sulfametrazole and metrazole crap I think that is what they are called, they are in the MOPS cataglog, was told the metrazole was a good product and the sulfa one looked good too.... I just want to ensure that I am prepared or better prepared for disaster when it decides to hit! I am also looking at having a 3' x 6' tank built I have not decided on the depth as of yet, I know front's prefer deeper depths...so that will be my next research project...ugh, my brain wont stop...I think it needs a "Park & Neutral" gear.... Thank you so much RD for all of your patients and time you have given me, you have no idea how much I appreciate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RD. Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 No problem, glad to help. Everything that you are doing is just fine, the reason that I previously suggested the meds that I did (Parasite Clear and/or Clout) was to remove the possibility of this fish having a serious internal pathogen problem, which it may in fact have. No amount of protein is going to resolve that. In many cases of what is commonly referred to as 'wasting' or 'skinny' disease (often seen in clown loaches as well as the Tangs that Jorg previously mentioned) no amount of meds will resolve the issue. Sometimes in this hobby, sheet happens. It's not fun playing God or Mother Nature, but it comes with the territory. Hopefully your fish will have a positive reaction to the meds, and will begin to fill out over the next few months. If it doesn't show any signs of improvement within 30 days or so, you may have to seriously consider euthanizing that fish. Either way, let us know how things turn out, and best of luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lana Bollers Posted January 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 I will do as you recommended previously, as I think that is one of my best bets to help him. We added new filtration to the tank a couple weeks ago, during the christmas holidays, leaving the old filtration on the tank as well, so we now have two canester filters on that system rather then one canester and one aqua clear... as I think part of the problem with my cousin blasting the music was to over power the sound of the aqua clear filter... I tested all the water a few days ago and all is fastastic, amm/nitrites are 0 and nitrates were a bit high around 20... I am trying which is why I am here, I know I don't know anything... I know to ask questions, to ensure good health of my fish... Tomorrow is our 40% water change and another dose of parasite clear then only one more dose after that... how will I know if he is getting better though or if I should use clout, if he is going to take a bit of time to gain his weight back... You know I can gain a few lbs each day why can't they....LOL... I know I hate trying to fatten things up...seems like it takes forever... rescued a mare a couple years ago, I wanted to see a difference next day and it took 9 months, partly because she was in foal then nursing... so I sure hope I see a difference in this guy a lot sooner then that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RD. Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Once the parasite clear treatment is completed, I wouldn't expect to see any huge gains for at least 3-4 weeks. By then you should at least begin to see the fish start to fill out some. If it is actively eating, and gaining at least some weight, I would hold off on using Clout. If you want to give it a boost in protein & fat, feed the TherA formula for 30-40 days. The mega dose of garlic in that formula will also assist in keeping parasites at bay, and it has worked wonders for fish that I have received in poor condition. One particular fish (a clown loach) went from almost as skinny as your fish, to making a complete 100% turnaround in 30 days. I actually had the net in my hand at one point earlier on & decided to give it another couple of weeks. That was several months back, and while this fish is stunted for its age, it swims & acts perfectly normal now (and I can no longer see its rib cage), and it is one of the most colorful clown loaches in my tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JORG Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Well hopefully you won't need it but I did throw the clout in the mail this afternoon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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