whats killing the fish?? HELP!!

[lt1fj40]

OK quick background I will try to keep it as short as possible...

Did the fishless cycle on my 80 gal freshwater tank, it took approx 2.5 weeks. The tank has silica sand base a 3d background and a big stack of rocks in the middle, all of which has been in the tank from the beginning. and 2 air stones producing lots of bubbles

Put in 20 fish right away and then another 28 a few days later all small fish max 1.5"

I have tested my water every day since I put fish in the tank and I have ZERO ammonia, nitrites and nitrates is 10 ppm...the water is hard Edmonton water and ph is neutral to alkaline.

The water shows the same as my other tanks except my other tanks have a bit more nitrate but other then that the water has been testing perfect.

I have done 50% water changes ever week to try to help this matter.

Here was my original fish list:

1 agassizzii

3 Rams (2 blue and 1 german)

4 cacatuoides (2 orange and 2 normal)

6 gold tetra's

6 tiger barbs

6 Black Phantom Tetra's

6 rummy nose Tetra's

6 Serpae Tetra's

3 Indian Flasher

2 Gold Algae Eater's

5 vampire crabs

I have lost from July 15th to date:

3 Rams

2 Orange cacatuoides

1 black phantom tetra

1 tiger barb

1 rummy nose

1 Indian Flasher

1 gold tetra

I thought it was slowing down but Today I lost the last Ram and a rummy nose..

The agassizzii has had pop eye now for 5 days and is not look very good at all.

All fish have died the same way:

I notice them not being as active as normal

They start breathing harder

they don't swim much and stay in one side of the tank on the bottom breathing hard and not eating

They start to do the death roll and swimming sideways

then I will find them dead on the bottom

All fish look totally fine until one day they start the dying process.

Most of the time this process is I notice this in the evening and the next morning they are gone.

What is going on in this tank!?!? Anything I can test for that I am not testing?

Help I dont want to lose anymore fish!!

Edited July 30, 2009 by lt1fj40

[Ishkabod]

The only thing i can think of is a parasite. Don't know what kind but gill flukes?? maybe?? Don't know but I'd definately remove any sick fish ASAP to a QT tank so if it is a Parasite then it won't spread.

Good luck and i wish i could be of more help

L

[Shai]

Did the fishless cycle on my 80 gal freshwater tank, it took approx 2.5 weeks.

Did you jumpstart the cycle using established filter media? A tank that big takes at least a month to cycle from scratch.

Put in 20 fish right away and then another 28 a few days later all small fish max 1.5"

That was way too many fish to put in all at once! Even with small-bodied fish you should have started with no more than 6-10 and waited at least a week before introducing another 6-10, then another week, and so on. The bacteria need that time to adjust to the increased bioload.

Having added 48 fish in less than a week, you likely started a mini-cycle and your fish are dying due to ammonia and nitrite poisoning (breathing hard supports this). I know you say your tests do not show any ammonia and nitrite but I find this hard to believe! Is it possible your tests have expired?

The GBRs ("blue" and "german" are the same thing) probably also died because the tank is too new. They need a mature tank (6 months to a year) and unless bred in local water need to be acclimated slowly.

Increase your water changes--25%-50% daily or every other day and see if your fish improve. If you have Prime, double dose to help detoxify the water in case your tests are incorrect.

[KTK]

Shai thought the same as me about the test kits. Try another b/c yours may be no good. I would not recommend adding that many fish at the same time in an existing tank never mind a new one. It may be parasites as mentioned above also. Make sure you have the proper dose of salt and the temp is also good. I'd have it at 80. If it turns out that it is the water use prime and Stability. Stability is great for braking down nitrites and ammonia. If you wanted to treat for internal parasites you could use metropex.

[Ishkabod]

The mini cycle sounds more like it. I don't know much about the fishless cycle so i couldn't really say that was the case and had initally dismissed it because of your reported readings. If you are using test Strips THAT is the problem so Go and buy a Proper Liquid test kit. Dose with prime too. Salt shouldn't hurt but i'm not expert on the fish you have and i know some species are sensitive to it. Be sure you are taking the test water from the intake of the filter NOT the stuff that has just come through the filter because you might not have enough filtration/current in a tank that big. Get Stability just in case it is a mini cycle which sounds more than likely and dose the tank as per directions IF you can get the dose directly into the filter and allow for it to sit in there with no water flow(still water) for about five minutes. It can be a hassle but the only reason they don't recommend it on the bottles is because it is such a hassle.

Good luck

L

P.S. Don't quote me on this but i'm sure that increasing the temp of the water increases ammonia toxicity so you'll want to double check if that's the case before you go increasing water temp not to mention it'll stress the fish out if you don't do it veeeryyy very gradually.

P.P.S. The more i think about it the more i like the idea that it's a mini cycle and the tank just doesn't have enough flow to allow the filters to take care of the ammonia in some areas of the tank. In an established tank there is bacteria on all surfaces and in the gravel that would help greatly with this problem.

Edited July 30, 2009 by Ishkabod

[lt1fj40]

Thanks all for your thoughts, I thought it was the water too hence why I tested it daily, it isnt the water I do not use the strips I use the test tube kits and have tried 2 other kits besides my original kit, one from a friend and the other bought new.

Big Al's has tested the water for me and get the exact same readings I do..no ammonia or nitrite.

I followed the fishless tank cycle instructions on this site and many others and it states you can put a full fish load on the tank as soon as it is cycled. I cycled the tank for 5 ppm of ammonia daily and the fish load I put on it wont even come close to that levels of ammonia output and I am far from a full load on that tank am i not?

I am using stability and just started prime yesterday as it is not recommended on a new fishless tank cycle...the reason why I tried prime is I was wondering if it was a heavy metal poisoning?...

I dont think it is flow issues? the canister flows really strong the tank has a new Eheim 2028 Professional II.

I have been treating with Melafix but the pop eyes hasnt gone away (been medicating 4 days now). I couldnt find any other pop eye stuff that said it was ok for invertabrates.

I have looked at every single fish closely when I removed it from the tank to look for signs of anything and haven't found anything..no rot, flukes, nothing until now with the one fish with pop eye.

I thought the same as you, new tank syndrome but no test shows that at all!

Oh..and the ram thing..lol I said the same thing when I bought them at big al's and the dude was "NO..these are german blue rams and that one is a german ram..big difference.."...lol I was like OK....lol

[Ishkabod]

Have you tested the PH of the water and what about the rocks you have in there. could those be the culprit?? Good luck i wish i had an idea other than NTS. Okay so if it's not NTS then get the fish out that aren't salt tolerant and dose the tank and heat the water. A vet article i had read stated he only knew of 2 types of fish disease that salt and heat won't treat. It's a good bet and then there is always melafix. Neither treatment if done properly will harm the fish. Also to give the fish a immune boost that might help use NLS thera A and or fresh Pureed garlic mixed with the current food. Also a treat of a Orange slice will help their Vit C levels and boost their immune system.

Good luck

L

P.S. I"m trying to cover whatever bases i can because this problem is soooo percular.

[lt1fj40]

Thanks ishkabod I have aquarium salt...any idea of which fish i have are not salt tolerant?

I have marble and rundle for rocks..I am not sure if they are the problem or not..

Oh and yes the PH is 7.8.

[Ishkabod]

I remember being told that Marble is a BIG NO NO BUT i could be wrong and i don't recognize the other type you said you have. Did you buy them from a fish store or a local landscape store? As for which fish aren't salt tolerant well i wish i could help but i'm mostly unfamiliar with the fish you have. What i do know is fish without scales mostly Catfish cannot. The crabs i have no clue on.

Good luck

L

[Parachromis1]

of 2 types of fish disease that salt and heat won't treat. It's a good bet and then there is always melafix. Neither treatment if done properly will harm the fish.

That's false. Melafix can actually make some diseases worse.

IMO, its more than likely an internal thing going on with your fish....is there plants or anything in the tank? And how new was the tank? There are many things that could contribute to the deterioration of a fishes immune system when prolonged to exposure.

Also, have you dosed with anything besides Prime or Stability? And how new are your bottles of chemicals?

[BettaFishMommy]

one thing jumped out at me here:

"I am using stability and just started prime yesterday as it is not recommended on a new fishless tank cycle...the reason why I tried prime is I was wondering if it was a heavy metal poisoning?..."

so the whole time you were cycling the tank there was no dechlorinator being used at all? wouldn't the chlorine/chloramine in our edmonton tapwater kill off any beneficial bacteria you were trying to produce via the fishless cycle? i know chlorine will evaporate out of the water after some time, but from what i have read chloramine will not.

[jvision]

If you are getting a NITRATE reading, your tank is cycled. What is the source of your fish? How many were wild-caught? Most stores do not quaranteen (although a few of our sponsors do), so some of your fish may have had internal parasites that have spread. You can help this by feeding either a medicated food, or New Life Spectrum Thera+A (my choice).

Check how the fish interact. It also sounds like stress-caused death... how are those crabs with the fish at night? If the crabs are too active at night, or even somewhat predatory, your fish will be stressed.

[lt1fj40]

one thing jumped out at me here:

"I am using stability and just started prime yesterday as it is not recommended on a new fishless tank cycle...the reason why I tried prime is I was wondering if it was a heavy metal poisoning?..."

so the whole time you were cycling the tank there was no dechlorinator being used at all? wouldn't the chlorine/chloramine in our edmonton tapwater kill off any beneficial bacteria you were trying to produce via the fishless cycle? i know chlorine will evaporate out of the water after some time, but from what i have read chloramine will not.

I was using a dechlorinator, but one that just removes chlorine and stuff, the fishless cycle page here says not to use things like Amque and prime but to use a simple chlorine/chloriamine remover.

[lt1fj40]

If you are getting a NITRATE reading, your tank is cycled. What is the source of your fish? How many were wild-caught? Most stores do not quaranteen (although a few of our sponsors do), so some of your fish may have had internal parasites that have spread. You can help this by feeding either a medicated food, or New Life Spectrum Thera+A (my choice).

Check how the fish interact. It also sounds like stress-caused death... how are those crabs with the fish at night? If the crabs are too active at night, or even somewhat predatory, your fish will be stressed.

I dont know what a stress death is like and the crabs can very well be the cause although they are too small to kill the fish themselves but stress could make sense.

The weird part is during the day the fish are all happy and the leave the crabs alone and vice versa...now that I say that out loud, it makes sense..most problems appear the next morning....the crabs are active most of the day as for late and night I am not sure but crabs are known to hunt at night. I was warned about crabs catching fish as they slept but these guys are too small to catch the fish I have but I guess not too small to stress them out?

I didnt know what a stress death would be like..and the gasping at the bottom of the tank is what confused me.

Edited July 30, 2009 by lt1fj40

[Ishkabod]

QT those crabs and get that garlic mixed with their food. Both should help. Never heard of melafix actually making anything worse ever but i'll try to find some info on that. Anyway fish that are stressed do end up like you discribed and i didn't pay enough attention to one of my tanks to notice it before the fish died(it was temporary holding tank on the floor but became more long term as my 80 gal continues to give me probs) Good luck with the fish and crabs.

If you want to make sure the crabs are really a problem get a red filter on a flashlight and watch the tank for a bit after lights out(nightfall if you are in a slightly sunlit room) there are also small LED units you can buy with a red light attatchment.

Good luck

L