Hikari Substitution

[Guest Master of Puppets]

Man I made a mistake get over it. To be honest it's just what I've heard, I don't use it, I don't even know where to get it. I said Dustin uses it for his fish and when he does he inject vitamens which do make them a good source of food. I'm not arguing with you because I see how you can get and I'm on thin ice already I'm not being part of it. All I want to say is you give me the impression from your last post that you think I don't know anything and you think you know everything. I will gladly challenge your knowledge on how too keep different fish but here is not the place.

Hey, if you want to feed your ray beefheart, feel free to do so.

But simply going on a chat board stating that's a good source of food, doesn't make it so.

Sometimes I wonder why I bother wasting my time trying to educate kids that think that they already know it all.

http://www.fishchannel.com/media/fish-excl...chlids.aspx.pdf

"I suggest, however, that you avoid those that incorporate beef heart. Beef heart is a fatty meat that will ultimately lead to the fatty degeneration of the liver in long-lived cichlids."

The article linked to above was written by Lee Newman, Curator of Tropical Waters at the Vancouver Public Aquarium.

You can read Lee's bio in the link below.

http://www.vanaqua.org/pressroom/curatorbios.htm

And please don't attempt to tell me that if the heart is de-veined that all of the fat is removed, because it isn't.

The tissue of beef heart also contains fat, and as Lee states above feeding beef heart will ultimately lead to fatty degeneration of the liver.

Best of luck to you & your fish ........

[RD.]

Injecting a food with vitamins doesn't change the fatty acid profile of a food, which is the main concern with feeding beef heart to fish. (the type of fat)

Edited November 13, 2009 by RD.

[Ishkabod]

Neil You really really know your fish food and thank you for watching out and correcting false info. I learned a little bit more today allthough it's useless to me right now with the type of fish i have but all in all Good info.

For everyone else i'm sure NLS is good. I can't get my cichlids to touch anything else. A floating pellet would be welcome in all sizes to help keep the bottom clean in those rocky tanks and allow removal of excess for those who can't help but overfeed.

Neil isn't the first person i've heard the NO beefheart/red meat thing from. I forget wherelse i read/heard it from but I remember it was somewhere reliable. oubt even oportunistic pirahnahs(sp?) are immune to the deadly affects and if they aren't well then better safe than sorry

Personally I didn't take Neils word on the benifits of NLS and until i see Bloat in my Cichlids I won't believe it's worse than Hikari or Omega One as both of them have caused bloat in fish i've seen. Now Ask Spencer Jack if his fish are on Xtreme and if he has had any reports of bloat or had any bloat in his fish when feeding them Xtreme and we might just have our answer.

Not to mention the video on their site is allot more impressive than a little bit of bragging that their ingredients are the best of the best of the alaskan fishery. Give me more proof that it's better not just your word is what I ask for and NLS is the only one who has delivered.

Okay well that ends that bit of OFF TOPIC STUFF and here is a bit of advice

why not try what Fairdeal did with his Rays. He's an expert in my opinion. And that was one of the best bits of advice so far. Now as to CHEAP alternatives. Well... Umm??........ Zucchini???????????? And one last thing I think we can safely say NO BEEFHEART.

Now everyone on this topic seems to be trying to help. Please keep that in mind.

L

Please i reallly don't mean to offend anyone EVER.

[fairdeal]

Just a few comments from the last post - Lisa I don't have rays just large fish that I fed the NLS too and I don't consider myself to be an expert on any fish related subject - just have opinions and experiences to share just like everyone else. I've had fish for a long long time and certainly don't mind sharing with other hobbyists in the least.

On the topic of food a few things I have learned over the years is to stay away from open bin bulk foods and any mammalian products. Another thing I've learned is to read the ingredient listings and pay attention to what the food contains. I lost a lot of fish for no apparent reasons in the early years and 2 things became abundantly clear way back - buy quality fish and buy quality food. When I got into fish a water change every 3 or 4 months was the norm and if you wanted information you found a book and hoped the author knew what he was talking about.

I certainly have to agree with Neil on the subject of nutrition and what is best for your fish. He is an expert in my opinion and goes out of his way to help hobbyists understand what their fish require and why. Here is a simple test - a good quality fish food will be assimilated in the fishes digestive system much better than a lower quality food. If you feed equal amounts of these foods to your fish a week apart in a bare bottom or sand substate tank take note of the amount of waste from each type. A lower quality food will produce more waste - always. My "toad" (australian lungfish) is a prime example - very little waste from a fish renowned for the amount of waste they put out feeding nothing but NLS H2O stable wafers. They are also known for their slow growth - from 7" to 12" and triple the girth in 9 months - in a 33G tank. Slow growth?

[Ishkabod]

Ah darn sorry bout that. It was 3 hours past bedtime and i really should learn not to post at that time. Thank you for the information Harold it gives everyone a better idea as to what fish food to buy and they don't have to rely solely on the word of someone else or take anyones advice. Neil is always helpful and has earned my respect. He does promote NLS over any other dry fish food but rightly so and i doubt it's only because he's the distributor.

Now it's three hours before i should have woken up without the alarm clock and i need to get going so

have a great day everyone

L

[RD.]

I appreciate the kind words, and while I do consider myself very well versed in this subject, I would never consider myself an expert, in anything.

Just like Harold I learned a long time ago to buy quality fish and feed quality food. If you can also manage to keep your water quality high, and stress levels in the tank low, everything else will take care of itself.

My comments on the subject of fish nutrition have always been somewhat controversial, initially because I challenged the status quo, and much more so when I suddenly had a vested interest in this topic. With regards to the latter, I was recommending & supporting the use of NLS long before I had any association with the company. Some of the long time members of this forum know that this is true.

Overall the entire commercial fish food industry is light years ahead of where it was 30 yrs ago, and there are certainly a number of brand name products currently on the market that for the most part will get the job done. Having said that this will always be a controversial subject as some people will always have certain brand loyalties over other products.

It doesn't mean that they are necessarily "better" than the next product on the shelf, or for that matter that they are even what I would consider a "good" product, but it is what it is. I'm quite certain that there are several million happy customers of Wardley fish food, even though I personally wouldn't feed that brand if you gave me a lifetime supply for free. Not that it won't produce results either, I'm quite certain it does (or they wouldn't still be in business), in my case I simply want better for my fish.

M of P - I wasn't attempting to challenge your knowledge, I was simply correcting a statement that you made, that was incorrect. You apparently felt the need to challenge me, which is fine & dandy, but then don't cry foul when things don't go your way. I'm willing to own each & every word that I post on a public forum, and I have always invited anyone to refute anything that I post that someone may feel is incorrect.

Allowing bogus info to go unchallenged is precisely how many of the urban myths in this hobby have been created. I don't see that type of behavior as being productive, or helping this hobby grow. While sometimes it would be much easier for me to sit on my hands to ensure that I never offend anyone, I don't see that as helping this hobby grow, either.

Also please note that I actually recommended NOT feeding one of the formulas that I sell to rays, that being the 6mm TherA. IMO there is no need to feed a mega garlic formula on a regular basis to a ray. Both the 3mm pellets, as well as the H20 wafers offer more than adequate nutrition for any species of stingray, and both formulas cost less. If there are those that want a larger NLS disc/pellet, with even higher protein content, stay tuned, it's in the works.

The motoro below was purchased from a LFS where IMHO it was being nutrient starved, to the point where I would say that it was becoming stunted. The tank setting was less than ideal, and it wasn't being fed nearly enough food. (at least not on a consistent basis)

After being removed from that tank, and fed NLS wafers as the main staple, in less than 6 months it went from an undernourished skinny 6" specimen, to a fat & sassy 10-11" fish.

Unfortunately that fish later died during a tank malfunction, but it will live on as one of the fish featured on the label of the new NLS Mega Fish formula. Other stingrays that eat NLS as their main staple can be viewed on my websites gallery page.

http://www.cichlid-food-canada.com/gallery.html

While some companies prefer to use cartoon pictures in their advertising, I've always felt that a more honest approach was to use photos of actual fish, that actually eat the food as the main portion of their diet.

HTH

[fatpuffer]

Hey "steve" the ray! I miss that guy.

Js