Red Devil wont touch food for 12 days now

[Neesmo]

hey guys, we have had this Red devil for close to a year and a half since he was about 1.5" and he is roughly 5" now. These are rough estimates

We really need your help. Our Red devil cichlid is not eating, he probably hasnt eaten in about 12 days as of now. He has taken food in his mouth chewed it and spit it out and sometimes just goes towards the food, looks at it and swims away. We have tried New Life Spectrum (which he used to gobble down), Dainichi ultimate Krill/color supreme/veggie delux/xl pro, freeze dried krill, cichlid excel, pleco pellet, and cichlid flake. Before he stopped eating anything he would eat new life and cichlid excel almost strictly. He hasnt ate a piece of krill, pleco pellet, any of the Dainichi pellets or cichlid flake. Those are all foods we have tried to feed him since he completely stopped eating. He has always been a picky eater, as most red devils are. But it is NOT normal for him to not even eat one pellet for this long. He has gone on hunger strikes in the past when I switched him to the 55 gallon tank he is currently in and when we took his pleco away to another tank. Both times it was much shorter of a time frame and would still swallow something here and there but not a full appitite

Tank setup

He is living in a 55 gallon by himself and this tank has been running for roughly 6 months now.

Filter is a Tetra whisper EX70 with very good bio material built up.

Natural stone substrate that he digs even as of this morning

10 fake plants and a couple decorations

Water conditions

I do 10-15% water changes once a week.

API ammonia drip test is at 0 ppm

API PH drip test is at 7.3.

I just got my friend to bring a Nitrate and Nitrite test kit over as I was out of drips. Both NO2 and NO3 come up 0.0 ppm

Fish conditions

He is still very active, digging often, attacking his reflection on the surface of the water with a lot of energy. He still patrols his tank for 90% of the day time. He goes to his "safe spot" the same amount as normal when people show up but doesnt sulk there.

He is swimming normally and his swim bladder seems normal. No weird movements or actions.

He has his typical colouring and his gills are not enflamed or red. Anus looks normal and no red or swollen area visable. No visible body marking or spots. He has a couple of scales that were damaged when he made contact with some plastic in the tank while attacking his reflection in the surface of the water. Happened a few weeks ago and melafix has him looking 90% healed scales

When holding a mirror to his glass I can see somewhat into his mouth and gills and nothing odd from what I can see. No excess mucas on gills or body visable

He just has a sunken stomach from not eating anything so long

We have treated the tank once with parasite clear medication. one dose 2 days ago and we will do another dose late today. We tried talking to LFS but they dont know what could be the matter. any info would help us out. Today I have done a 25% water change and have been leaving his lights half off for the last 2 days

Up until the last 11-12 days he had been pretty much only eating cichlid excel(his choice) which is a spirulina based food. He has not been swallowing any of that either for this period of time. He would always have some new life spectrum when ever he felt like it. He has always been very very picky eater. He seems to have interest in the food we put in the tank no matter what it is but he never swallows it and sometimes wont even take it into his mouth to try it. He responds with great interest to a bag of food being shaken in front on the tank, especially when it is the cichlid excel bag

Picture was taken while mirror was held up to his tank. His gills are flared because of that. Picture taken about 1 month ago. He looks the same as he did then colour wise etc

Thanks. We are at the end of our ropes here.

Amy and Kyle

Edited February 20, 2010 by Neesmo

[RD.]

Unless you just performed a 100% water change, or your tank isn't established (which it seems to be) you should always have some NO3 showing up.

As far as RD's being picky, my experience is they will eat dirt if that's what you train them to eat. I've raised out a fair number of juvies, and owned adults, and have never had an individual that was picky. Then again I trained them to eat one type of food, and offered no alternatives. That tends to reduce the chances of a fish deciding what's best for them via their taste buds.

If I had to take a wild guess I would think that this is more of a behavioural issue, than an illness issue, but that's just a guess.

Just to rule out a potential water quality issue, what brand of water conditioner are you using when doing your water changes? I would also invest in a new NO3 (nitrate) test kit, as a 0.0 reading is impossible.

[The-Influence]

Try Soaking His Food In Garlic ...! I Did This With My Clown Knife When He Got Sick And Did Not Eat For 6 Weeks .... It Worked Very Well ......

Blake

[RD.]

While soaking food in garlic can sometimes trigger a feed response in a picky fish, it won't 'cure' any type of internal or external illness.

Edited February 20, 2010 by RD.

[JLake]

no nitrate is impossible. do a re test bc the nitrite test may be bunk too!

[Neesmo]

Unless you just performed a 100% water change, or your tank isn't established (which it seems to be) you should always have some NO3 showing up.

As far as RD's being picky, my experience is they will eat dirt if that's what you train them to eat. I've raised out a fair number of juvies, and owned adults, and have never had an individual that was picky. Then again I trained them to eat one type of food, and offered no alternatives. That tends to reduce the chances of a fish deciding what's best for them via their taste buds.

If I had to take a wild guess I would think that this is more of a behavioural issue, than an illness issue, but that's just a guess.

Just to rule out a potential water quality issue, what brand of water conditioner are you using when doing your water changes? I would also invest in a new NO3 (nitrate) test kit, as a 0.0 reading is impossible.

Its not my test I ran out of both recently and asked a friend to bring some over. he just brought the drips, we used my vile and I didnt compare it to a chart. Just eye balled that test from memory as he didnt bring a chart. I will be trying to buy a new N02 and N03 test tonight. That was just to get a test done this morning.

Ive always had the habbit of feeding a variety of foods to all of my fish but it seems like you are right in that for my Red devil I will have to train him to eat one type of food. He has gradually gotten more picky over time. Still the issue remains that he wont even touch anything at the moment.

As for water conditioner I used only Tetra Aqua brand conditioners. Aqua safe in the cichlid tanks and Blackwater extract for the piranhas

Any other thoughts?

[Neesmo]

As far as the garlic. I have tried feeding him New life with Therra and that didnt do anything for him. I know its not exactly garlic but its as close as I have.

Can I use garlic cloves to soak food in any way, or does it have to be a liquid form extract?

I live in a small town with no car at the moment. That is why the new test kits and things can be an issue for me at the moment.

Kyle

[RD.]

You can use the juice from freshly squeezed garlic cloves. Feeding a variety of foods is fine if you feel the need, but sometimes it can lead to an overly picky fish that decides to only eat what it wants, when it wants. I suspect this may be what you have run into, although not eating for 10+ days isn't typical, especially for a young fish in non breeding mode. With any luck your next round of parasite clear will get him back on the right track.

As far as water conditioners, not a good choice I'm afraid. Blackfalds water is piped in from Red Deer, which treats the water with chloramine @ 2 mg/l, resulting in a spike of free ammonia (NH3) with each & every water change that you perform. The products that you have state that they will remove chloramine, but in actuality all they really do is split the chlorine/ammonia bond, leaving your fish exposed to the NH3 until your bio filters eventually break it down. I just posted the info found in the link below earlier today, I would highly recommend reading it, especially the portion quoted below.

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=309623

Note: Some products that advertise that they will detoxify both chlorine & chloramine, in actuality only split the chloramine/ammonia bond, they do not reduce the free ammonia. If the label doesn't clearly state that the product will neutralize or remove ammonia, then chances are it is nothing more than watered down sodium thiosulfate. It's nothing more than slick marketing, so read the labels closely, or stick with high quality products that have a good track record such as Prime, Safe, and/or ClorAm-X.

BTW - your water should have a pH of approx 7.8-8.0, not 7.3, unless you are experiencing a pH drop between water changes. The info below is fairly accurate.

Red Deer Water Quality Parameters

Once you get your hands on the correct water conditioner, and your meds are finished, I'd up that RD's water changes to 40% weekly & see if that brings it around.

HTH

[XodoK]

I 100% agree with Neil. Although you could suspect an internal parasite as well.

[Neesmo]

You can use the juice from freshly squeezed garlic cloves. Feeding a variety of foods is fine if you feel the need, but sometimes it can lead to an overly picky fish that decides to only eat what it wants, when it wants. I suspect this may be what you have run into, although not eating for 10+ days isn't typical, especially for a young fish in non breeding mode. With any luck your next round of parasite clear will get him back on the right track.

As far as water conditioners, not a good choice I'm afraid. Blackfalds water is piped in from Red Deer, which treats the water with chloramine @ 2 mg/l, resulting in a spike of free ammonia (NH3) with each & every water change that you perform. The products that you have state that they will remove chloramine, but in actuality all they really do is split the chlorine/ammonia bond, leaving your fish exposed to the NH3 until your bio filters eventually break it down. I just posted the info found in the link below earlier today, I would highly recommend reading it, especially the portion quoted below.

http://www.monsterfi...ad.php?t=309623

Note: Some products that advertise that they will detoxify both chlorine & chloramine, in actuality only split the chloramine/ammonia bond, they do not reduce the free ammonia. If the label doesn't clearly state that the product will neutralize or remove ammonia, then chances are it is nothing more than watered down sodium thiosulfate. It's nothing more than slick marketing, so read the labels closely, or stick with high quality products that have a good track record such as Prime, Safe, and/or ClorAm-X.

BTW - your water should have a pH of approx 7.8-8.0, not 7.3, unless you are experiencing a pH drop between water changes. The info below is fairly accurate.

Red Deer Water Quality Parameters

Once you get your hands on the correct water conditioner, and your meds are finished, I'd up that RD's water changes to 40% weekly & see if that brings it around.

HTH

I have used the Prime product before and I have a very small amount left here still. Not enough to do a change though. I will get some prime from now on for the cichlids but will have to keep using the Tetra aqua in some way with the piranhas for the blackwater extract part of it. Will likely just add it after conditioning their water with prime.

Even right out of my tap my water is 7.5 ph with the API liquid test. There is no way my test is showing 7.8 or anywhere close to 8 ph. When we did the ph test on the 55 gallon yesterday we both looked at it and were split on 7.3-7.4 looking at the card. We do tests quite frequently on all of my tanks. I watch the Mbuna and Piranha tanks especially close for PH. They all stay where they are and I do not get ph fluctuations.

Will do a 40% change on my tank when I get some prime conditioner. Its good timing anyways as I only have enough tetra aqua conditioner for one more change anyways. Doing the second dose of parasite clear right now and will do some food in garlic juise tomorrow morning for him

Thanks for the advise so far. Im open to more thought.

Kyle

[RD.]

Even right out of my tap my water is 7.5 ph with the API liquid test.

Right, and if you allowed that same water to gas off for 12-24 hrs (our winter water is super saturated with C02 in the winter) your pH would rise, and your reading would be approx 7.8

The fact that the pH in your tank is 7.3-7.4, seems to imply that you have more nitrates than you think, and the acidity from that is driving your pH down in between water changes.

[Neesmo]

Well Im going to do as stated in my last post.

I just tested the other 3 of my running tanks and the piranha tank reads 6.8 PH(i lower the ph with peat, bogwood and extract), mbuna tank is at 7.2-7.3(bogwood and cactus wood for pleco), 25 gallon tank is 7.3-7.4 and like I said the 55 gallon my Red devil is in reads 7.3-7.4. You seem to know your stuff but like I said, I watch my tests often and my ph is always where is is on these tanks.

I hope to see results in Diablos hunger from the second dose tomorrow

Thanks

Kyle

[RD.]

Kyle,

Get a glass of water from your tap, stir it up a bit, then let it sit until tomorrow morning. Test the pH tomorrow and let me know what kind of reading you get.

BTW - just curious, but where did those feeders come from that you offered your RD a few days ago?

[Neesmo]

We bought them from petsmart in red deer. 2 guppys, minnows and 3 x ghost shrimp. He killed them and didnt eat them. Didnt give him the ghost shrimps yet though. Might try tomorrow

Kyle

[RD.]

Just an FYI - but when you introduce feeders from the local pet store you are potentially introducing any number of pathogens to your tank. Most feeders are raised in very crowded, very unhealthy conditions, long before they end up in a tank at the local fish store. Sharing nets, water change hoses, etc, can pass those pathogens from one tank to another.

Pathogens that one fish may be stong enough to withstand, others may not be so lucky.

Personally you couldn't pay me any amount of money to drop feeders purchased at Petsmart into any of my tanks. It's like playing Russian Roullette, eventually someone is going to catch a bullet.