Hybrid opinions wanted

[alterego]

I just listed some Jewels in the livestock section, and knowing that they are probably hybrids, I listed them as such. BUT...From what I have read that the Neon Jewels, which have come to be a pretty widely kept aquarium fish, do not exist in the wild and have come into existence most probably by breeding two different Hemichromis species. So if this is true, then by having a Neon Jewel breed with a Red Jewel am I more likely to be creating yet another hybrid or am I perpetuating a variant as with the Electric Blue Jack Dempsey... Anyone care to weigh in on this?

[jvision]

Hybridization is becoming more acceptable in the hobby (Parrots, Flowerhorns, some rays, etc). I think the biggest problem is when people try to pass off hybrids as true/pure species. Also, hybridization becomes a problem when species are extinct in the wild. For example, Endler's livebearers do not exist in their native habitat; and, they breed readily with guppies. So, most purists in the hobby would frown on mixing Endler's with guppies b/c we'd be losing an extinct species.

If you're selling hybrids as hybrids, I don't see much of a problem with it.

[Wingin' It]

If you're selling hybrids as hybrids, I don't see much of a problem with it.

Ditto

[Bandi]

I am all for hybrids. They add variety and appeal. But I also agree with the above comments of re-enforcing the importance of naming a fish for what it is. If it is a hybred, just say so. Some people don't care as they just want a show peice. It is important for breeders to know what they are buying and thus raising so the purity of a species can be preserved.

Can someone post a link about neon jewels as I am curious. I bought some fish at a LFS labled "Neon Red Jewels". When I got home I looked them up and could only find a reference to a "Tourquoise Jewel"...same thing as your "neon jewel"?

[DanGofCalgary]

I do not judge others for what they might or might not do with Hybrids. I personally won't buy or otherwise trade in them. But with that said, I am not sure I am even capable of judging what is a hybrid and what isn't.

To me, and this is far more simplistic than what I have seen, if a fish will voluntarily breed with another species then I think of it not being any different than mixing two dogs, or two humans of different races. (e.g. crossing a rottweiler with a golden retriever, or an Asian girl with a Caucasian man). If you mix endlers and guppies and they voluntarily spawn, I question whether they truly are a different species. I am no judge of this, and certainly don't have the genetic knowledge to make that distinction, but it seems so to me.

In creating a mule, does a horse voluntarily inseminate a donkey (or vice versa? i really don't have that info) or is it done by artificial insemination? When they cross fish species, are they putting some kind of hormones or drugs in the water or the fish? Or will the fish just voluntarily spawn because they are together?

I don't really get that part, but if it will occur naturally I question whether it is really Hybridization or just the same species with variations (like the variation between a Spanish person and a Lithuanian).

Just my thoughts.

Peace

[Vallisneria]

You can't really compare breeding dogs or races of humans to hybridization of species. Dogs are all the same species, as are different races of humans.

Hybridization does occur naturally or without artificial insemination done by humans. That doesn't mean that the 2 animals are of the same species or even the same genus. But yes it is more common in species that are similar(ie.endlers/guppies, platies/swords, horse/donkey, lion/tiger)

In my own tank I had a male Placidochromis electra breed with a female Labidochromis perlmutt. Two completely different genus/species but they were able to produce babies successfully.

I'm conflicted over hybrids in the aquarium hobby. I dont' have any issues with people keeping them but I do when it comes to selling them and lack of information. This is a big problem with african cichlids and sometimes you get stuck with a hybrid that was sold as "pure" or mis labeled completely. Just look at the "mixed african" tank at most petstores to see this problem. If you do have to sell them then labeling them as hybrids is a definite must.

[DanGofCalgary]

I understand what you are saying Val, but I am suggesting that perhaps the determination of what is and isn't a species isn't that accurate.

Again, I don't have the knowledge of genetics, and what is and isn't the same species based on what X scientists have determined is and isn't a distinct species vs. what is line bred and is the same species.

How do you determine that a gold angel is the same species as a wild caught angel? Again, I accept that you are correct and I am not, based on having no direct knowledge of how a true 'species' is determined. My thinking is, if the fish in the wild will do it (like birds do it, bees do it) I would add a question mark in my mind of whether they are truly distinct species is all I am suggesting.

[jvision]

It's true that systematics isn't an exact science. Lumpers and Splitters are always comparing notes - one group saying a bunch of fish that are similar are the same species, while the other group wants to recognize the differences. You see it a lot with African cichlids - particularly peacocks of the Aulunocara genus. There are some hobbyists who follow the systematics of this group that are saying that many of these fish will end up lumped into the same species. And I know of at least a few different plecos that could easily be the same species, but are split into different species because the few populations that have been studied don't overlap geographically and are different colors.

The true measure of hybridization used to be that the 2 fish would not produce viable offspring, meaning that if there were kids, those kids couldn't have kids. However, we are starting to see more and more experiences of Blood Parrots (possibly a cross between Red Devil and Sevrum) produce viable offspring. The same with some Rays.

I think the main school of thought in the hobby these days is that if a fish is a hybrid (or even possibly a hybrid), it should be disclosed. There are still some who think that hybrids have no place in the hobby, and others who think that hybridization should be a goal.