Grow Outs

[rayfong]

Pretty much all of my fish are onto pellets. Exceptions are my freshwater pipefish which I have to feed live brine shrimp to.

Standard diet of my 180 is 3mm pellets. Everything in there eats that, from the silver dollars to the bichirs and the thin bar datnoids. The silver dollars would take a pellet and do the old spit and catch routine until it was all gone. When I had my lima shovelnose, indo dat, red tail giant gourami and bocourti, they would eat the 10mm as well. They would eat that in one gulp and be done with it.

The only frozen food any of my fish get on occasion is brine shrimpm blood worms or mysis shrimp.

[RD.]

Darcy, I think that most of the experts in this field decided to use their funding for more advanced research, instead of studying something that could easily be resolved just by using a bit of common sense.

Beefheart originates from warm blooded animals, and contains fats with high melting points, which typically equates to a portion of the fat being stored in the liver. Even though overall beefheart has a rather low fat content (compared to the rest of the beef) cold blooded animals tend to have slow melting, harder to digest for fish, fats. The problem lies in the quantity of beef being fed, and the duration. For long lived species, feeding something such as beefheart will generally equate to fatty deposition of the fishes liver, which generally equates to premature death.

The same logic can be applied to feeding trout or salmon chow (which generally have a rather high crude fat content) to tropical species of fish.

Edited December 15, 2010 by RD.

[dunl]

So the logical assumption is.....the answer is "no"?

[RD.]

Feel free to make whatever logical assumption that you want.

[dunl]

Feel free to make whatever logical assumption that you want.

Okay, I've made that assumption.

Lee Newman, Curator of Tropical Waters at the Vancouver Public Aquarium has spoken out against feeding beefheart many times, for the same reason as I do, over time it tends to lead to fatty degeneration of the liver. According to one of the DVM's that specialise in aquatic animal medicine at the U of FL, fatty liver disease is considered as being one of the main causes of death in aquarium fish.

Now please answer a direct question - can you direct us to some scientific studies that have looked at this correlation?

[CursiveDuck]

You have a connection to the internet right? I would presume so as you've posted. It's just a simple search into google scholar will help find your answer. I'm sure RD has a busy schedule and doesn't have time to do the research for you. After my exams if you are seriously looking for studies, and not just trying to prove a point, I will try and find you some studies as I have access to loads of academic databases as a student. I will be done my exams later this week, so if you seriously want an article just PM me and I'll take the time to help you find one.

[dunl]

You have a connection to the internet right? I would presume so as you've posted. It's just a simple search into google scholar will help find your answer. I'm sure RD has a busy schedule and doesn't have time to do the research for you. After my exams if you are seriously looking for studies, and not just trying to prove a point, I will try and find you some studies as I have access to loads of academic databases as a student. I will be done my exams later this week, so if you seriously want an article just PM me and I'll take the time to help you find one.

It's not up to me to prove these points. If someone wants to come on here and state something as fact, should it not be up to them to provide the proof? Otherwise, all I am stating is that possibly it is just an opinion, not fact. And otherwise, they could possibly be misleading people.

But hey, if you have lots of time to be RD's little research assistant, by all means feel free to provide the proof for his comments.

[RD.]

Yes, my bad for misleading people into thinking that feeding beefheart over a prolonged period will cause excessive fat deposition in a fishes liver. :boxed:

And people wonder why I no longer spend much time on this forum.

[dunl]

Yes, my bad for misleading people into thinking that feeding beefheart over a prolonged period will cause excessive fat deposition in a fishes liver. :boxed:

And people wonder why I no longer spend much time on this forum.

I didn't say you were misleading or not. I simply asked you to back up your claims with proof.

[CursiveDuck]

You have a connection to the internet right? I would presume so as you've posted. It's just a simple search into google scholar will help find your answer. I'm sure RD has a busy schedule and doesn't have time to do the research for you. After my exams if you are seriously looking for studies, and not just trying to prove a point, I will try and find you some studies as I have access to loads of academic databases as a student. I will be done my exams later this week, so if you seriously want an article just PM me and I'll take the time to help you find one.

It's not up to me to prove these points. If someone wants to come on here and state something as fact, should it not be up to them to provide the proof? Otherwise, all I am stating is that possibly it is just an opinion, not fact. And otherwsie, they could possibly be misleading people.

But hey, if you have lots of time to be RD's little research assistant, by all means feel free to provide the proof for his comments.

Did I suggest I would be RD's little research assistant? No, I suggested I would be yours if anything in the spread of knowledge to help the pursuit of your interest, but thank for coming out. And as far as stating something as fact he does state that he himself stands out against it, which would imply opinion anyways, so I am lost as to what you are trying to prove if he's already stated its an opinion. He also quoted Lee Newman, Curator of Tropical Waters at the Vancouver Public Aquarium. A figure I would believe to have done the research before standing on such morale, yet what would Lee Newman know? He's only the Curator of Vancouver Public aquarium.

[dunl]

Did I suggest I would be RD's little research assistant? No, I suggested I would be yours if anything in the spread of knowledge to help the pursuit of your interest, but thank for coming out. And as far as stating something as fact he does state that he himself stands out against it, which would imply opinion anyways, so I am lost as to what you are trying to prove if he's already stated its an opinion. He also quoted Lee Newman, Curator of Tropical Waters at the Vancouver Public Aquarium. A figure I would believe to have done the research before standing on such morale, yet what would Lee Newman know? He's only the Curator of Vancouver Public aquarium.

I have now idea what Lee Newman would know, not without knowing anything more than a name. That's why scientific studies are done in the first place; otherwise, we'd all be running around with the conjectures of the ancient Greek theoreticists still. The problem with people stating opinions in such a way on these forums is that it appears that they are stating facts, not opinions. I simply asked for proof to back that up. As RD speaks out so strongly against it, I don't see the harm in asking for some research to support that.

And people wonder why I no longer spend much time on this forum.

Not the first time over the years you have been asked to show proof, on this forum or others. I'm not sure why this is such a sore spot for you or CursiveDuck. You made some statements, so let's see you back it up.

[RD.]

Dr. Peter Burgess MSc, Ph.D.,of the Aquarium Advisory Service in England, is not only an experienced aquarium hobbyist, but also a scientist that specializes in the health & disease in fish. He has written over 300 articles and five books on fish health and is a visiting lecturer in Aquarium Sciences and Conservation at Plymouth University, where he works with the University of Plymouth training students in scientific research. Among his other positions, Dr. Burgess is a senior consultant to the Mars FishCare business and regularly runs fish health & husbandry courses for aquarists, fish scientists and vets. He's also a regular contributor & Fish Health consultant for the Practical Fishkeeping Magazine, as well as other magazines devoted to the fish keeping hobby.

Below is an excerpt from the Practical Fishkeeping Magazine titled;

Liver Damage and Red Meats,

"The routine of feeding beef heart and other red meats to Cichlids can ultimately give rise to health problems. Poultry meat is also suspect. Red meats, including lean meats such as beef heart, contain the wrong sorts of fats - these harden within the cold-blooded fish, leading to blockages and fatty deposits around the liver.

Also, the relative proportions of amino acids within the mammalian proteins are different to those required by fish. Hence, feeding red meats will cause the cichlid to excrete more nitrogenous (ammonia) wastes, thereby placing an extra burden on the biological filter.

Below is a direct quote from Lee Newman.

"I suggest, however, that you avoid those that incorporate beef heart. Beef heart is a fatty meat that will ultimately lead to the fatty degeneration of the liver in long-lived cichlids."

I'm sure that if I had the time, and really wanted to, I could find scores of qualified proffesionals that work within the aquaculture industry, including many scientists that specialize in the field of fish health, that would also state the exact same thing as the two gentleman above.

Most of the research done in the area of fish health over the past 50 years can't be found on Wikipedia, so it's not very realistic to expect myself, or anyone to else "direct us to some scientific studies", and if we can't (or in my case, at this point of the discussion can't be bothered looking), then those comments are automatically considered "misleading". Futhermore, most studies that can be found online, where you don't have to pay a large fee just to read them, are based on commercial fish, as in those raised for human consumption. Those studies don't involve "years" (usually a few weeks at best), nor are they typically designed with the fishes longevity in mind.

Feed trials or studies involving species such as Pangasius sanitwongsei would be non existent, as it would be for most species of catfish from that part of the world.

My comment in this discussion was to provide what I personally felt was some sound advice regarding the feeding of catfish in captivity.

Perhaps in the future instead of nit picking what others have to say when attempting to help fellow members of this site, you can offer something constructive to the conversation. I honestly don't need to prove anything to you, and certainly not on the subject of fish health, or nutrition.

Have a nice day.

[CursiveDuck]

On a side note, we still do in many practices run with conjectures from plenty of greek theorists. I wouldn't discredit them so easily as many of their works have stood the test of time, yet that is off topic, as is this whole arguement. He was showing pictures of grow outs. Now I would like to ask you the same question as to why it such a hot button topic that RD specifically find you an article? Would this not seem like targeting? I did in lieu of this whole situation, offer to help find some articles for either party to put a more academic feel to it, in which doing so, you made an attempt to emasculate me and called me RD's little research assistant. (I did not specify whether or not it would be for or against) All I was attempting to do was offer my access to Biological databases from schools all across Alberta, and Canada in attempt to search for an acedmic article that may correlate the two, to help satisfy either side of the arguement. Yet in my attempts I garnered harrassment. I'll apologize in advance next time before offering to add some articles to a debate. If anyone on the board still would like some articles on the matter to better their knowledge on the subject, I will still offer to find you an article.

[dunl]

Dr. Peter Burgess MSc, Ph.D.,of the Aquarium Advisory Service in England, is not only an experienced aquarium hobbyist, but also a scientist that specializes in the health & disease in fish. He has written over 300 articles and five books on fish health and is a visiting lecturer in Aquarium Sciences and Conservation at Plymouth University, where he works with the University of Plymouth training students in scientific research. Among his other positions, Dr. Burgess is a senior consultant to the Mars FishCare business and regularly runs fish health & husbandry courses for aquarists, fish scientists and vets. He's also a regular contributor & Fish Health consultant for the Practical Fishkeeping Magazine, as well as other magazines devoted to the fish keeping hobby.

Below is an excerpt from the Practical Fishkeeping Magazine titled;

Liver Damage and Red Meats,

"The routine of feeding beef heart and other red meats to Cichlids can ultimately give rise to health problems. Poultry meat is also suspect. Red meats, including lean meats such as beef heart, contain the wrong sorts of fats - these harden within the cold-blooded fish, leading to blockages and fatty deposits around the liver.

Also, the relative proportions of amino acids within the mammalian proteins are different to those required by fish. Hence, feeding red meats will cause the cichlid to excrete more nitrogenous (ammonia) wastes, thereby placing an extra burden on the biological filter.

Below is a direct quote from Lee Newman.

"I suggest, however, that you avoid those that incorporate beef heart. Beef heart is a fatty meat that will ultimately lead to the fatty degeneration of the liver in long-lived cichlids."

I'm sure that if I had the time, and really wanted to, I could find scores of qualified proffesionals that work within the aquaculture industry, including many scientists that specialize in the field of fish health, that would also state the exact same thing as the two gentleman above.

Most of the research done in the area of fish health over the past 50 years can't be found on Wikipedia, so it's not very realistic to expect myself, or anyone to else "direct us to some scientific studies", and if we can't (or in my case, at this point of the discussion can't be bothered looking), then those comments are automatically considered "misleading". Futhermore, most studies that can be found online, where you don't have to pay a large fee just to read them, are based on commercial fish, as in those raised for human consumption. Those studies don't involve "years" (usually a few weeks at best), nor are they typically designed with the fishes longevity in mind.

Feed trials or studies involving species such as Pangasius sanitwongsei would be non existent, as it would be for most species of catfish from that part of the world.

THANK YOU. That's all I was looking for, some further research.

My comment in this discussion was to provide what I personally felt was some sound advice regarding the feeding of catfish in captivity.

Perhaps in the future instead of nit picking what others have to say when attempting to help fellow members of this site, you can offer something constructive to the conversation. I honestly don't need to prove anything to you, and certainly not on the subject of fish health, or nutrition.

Have a nice day.

And all I was asking for was some further proof of what you had suggested. An innocent inquiry that you blew out of proportion.

[hustler]

The only reason I brought up beefheart in the first place is that it is still commonly used in asia and lots of Gro Outs around the world due to remarkable size growth when its fed to catfish IE Paroon sharks..... Much like discus ect ect. Its still all over google and this is the first I have actually heard of it causing a negative with this type of fish..... Dont get me wrong..... I would never feed it to an arowana because it increases the risk of dropeye or abnormal body shape with such quick growth rates.... I never put much thought into it after that. But after being corrected I have taken it out of all my catfish/gar/gourami feeding routine just as a precaution.

It is going to be a battle getting them to take NLS and I cant find any bulk massivore anywhere but this is all for the fish anyways........Right?