Dropping Ph

[Fishnerd]

So we've all been sucked in at some time or another buying a "PH DOWN" solution from the LFS and realised what a waste of money that is. I remember in the 80's everyone got on the peatmoss bandwagon to drop PH. Then in the 90's I was turned on to using 17% phosphoric acid solution from a hydropnics greenhouse supply, that worked great cuz it had no rebound effect and I used to breed discus like crazy with it. Now I hear about almond leaves being the "IN" thing.

So tell me your story and convince me what I should choose and why... so far I'm partial to the phosphoric acid use again but cant remember where to find it. I wanna get some Altums and try and breed em..

thanks in advance for all the comments ... though I'm sure this has been discussed before and i've missed it..

[dunl]

Simply put, it is an ionic reaction to reduce the pH in your water. PH down, peat, phosphoric acid....they all work the same way. The more acid released, the more acidic the water becomes, the lower the pH scale.

Once they are removed, the pH will rise again. Unless you buy a ionic water purifier specifically for aquarium use that will change the chemical makeup of the water.

[werner]

CO₂ addition- we do it all the time in planted tanks. When dissolved in water it makes carbonic acid and drops the pH.

Are you going to be using R/O water? Lowering the pH is easier if you've got softer water to start with.

[Fishnerd]

I would like to use RO but I think I'd need a big unit to soften a few tanks and you waste so much water. Other than an RO unit and softening pillows does anything else soften water. I have a 110 I'd like to drop ph for and ultimately soften as well.

ionic water purifier - please explain what this is how it works and how I can get one lol..

To be honest I feel it's always such a losing battle due to the type of water we have in the Edmonton area that's why I asked for people opinions

[ridethespiral]

the only way youre going to make this easy on yourself is by using r/o water to help soften the water, and then using muriatic, or acetic acid to lower the pH. to lower your pH by a few points in edmonton willl make your tank look like black tea with the amount of IAL you will need.

[Fishnerd]

I don't think I want black as coffee water I think I'll go back to softening pillows and phosphoric acid as I used in the past. the problem with R/O is you have all that hard waste water plus I would require a lot all at once then not much for a while except h2o changes weekly and am not keen on soft water storage in bins. Ultimately I suppose i'm making difficult on myself in not using R/O since it is effective.

I cannot use CO2 injection because I have a sump and I wanted avoid chemicals this time around I was hoping for organic softening and ph lowering methods that would sit in my sump. I have heard hornwort acts as a softener but it wont exactly live in my sump and didn't want it in my tank.

I guess I'm hooped ....

[ridethespiral]

I don't think I want black as coffee water I think I'll go back to softening pillows and phosphoric acid as I used in the past. the problem with R/O is you have all that hard waste water plus I would require a lot all at once then not much for a while except h2o changes weekly and am not keen on soft water storage in bins. Ultimately I suppose i'm making difficult on myself in not using R/O since it is effective.

I cannot use CO2 injection because I have a sump and I wanted avoid chemicals this time around I was hoping for organic softening and ph lowering methods that would sit in my sump. I have heard hornwort acts as a softener but it wont exactly live in my sump and didn't want it in my tank.

I guess I'm hooped ....

if the softening pillos and phosphoric acid worked best, then by all means go with what you know works. but youre dealing with pH swings every water change of youre not pretreating your water, back to the storage bin issue here.

from what ive read, not all ro units have that high of a waste, and it depends on water temp as well as pressure. hope you figure this out !

[werner]

I have heard hornwort acts as a softener

Hornwort and other plants like Elodea, Egeria, Vallisneria, and Najas can extract their carbon from the bicarbonate ions in the water (if CO₂ is lacking). They produce calcium carbonate (looks like a dusty coating on the leaves) and can raise the pH to dangerous levels. Not what you're looking for!

I just did a presentation for the CAS on reverse osmosis and softening water. Here's some of the information that might help you:

Most of the time when we're talking about hardness, we refer to General Hardness/GH (the measure of Calcium and Magnesium ions). However we also need to be concerned with Total Dissolved Solids/TDS [the measure of of all charged inorganic and organic substances (<2 μm ) in the water.] The rivers of South America, Southeast Asia and West Africa are predominantly soft water rivers because the water is flowing across terrain that is poor in soluble minerals. The fish are accustomed to waters that are low many salts/ions, not just Ca and Mg.

Water softening pillows are like household water softeners- they replace the calcium and magnesium ions with sodium ions. While the water is technically "soft" if you measure the GH, you have not reduced the TDS. There are still all sorts of other ions in solution, including the sodium. Not really a suitable option for the fish.

A reverse osmosis unit uses water pressure to produce pure, soft water, while rejecting most of the dissolved solids. If you want it even purer you can add a Deionization cartridge, which removes nearly all of the remaining impurities.

Yes, you do get waste water. It depends on your feed water pressure and back pressure within the system, temperature of the water, and initial water TDS. I'd say the reject rate is generally around 3:1 or 4:1, but can go as high as 10:1 in a really inefficient unit. You can use the reject water for watering plants, the lawn, etc.

You will probably end up mixing the RO water with some tap water to get a suitable hardness (50/50, 75/25, etc.), so like you said, you won't be using tons for water changes. If you don't want to use a storage bin with a permanently installed unit, you can just hook it up to the sink to fill a bucket as you need it.

Of course, a ready supply is nice to keep around since they only produce water at a trickle. You can call it an "emergency water supply" if that makes your spouse feel better about having a big water barrel in the basement (ROs also remove bacteria, viruses, giardia, and cryptosporidium from the water )

Here's mine:

I just attach a hose to the bottom and fill my WC buckets and top-off unit whenever I need to.

RO units are really quite affordable when you consider the convenience. Especially if you compare your alternatives- hauling those jugs from the grocery store or collecting rain/snow!

You can get a 5 stage, 100gpd RO/DI for just over $150 (free shipping!) from here.

Once you have soft water, may not need to fiddle with it significantly to get the pH down. The water will naturally acidify over time from the biological processes of the fish, plants, bacteria, etc. If you do need to adjust it, it will be much easier because of the lower alkalinity.

Here's a good article: The Soft Water Aquarium: Risks and Benefits

[Fishnerd]

Now that's the kinda informative description I was needing !!! your argument makes sense I never realised it could also simply be hooked up to the sink to draw as needed. My ultimate intention is to set up a show tank for Altums to encourage pairing and eventual breeding. as difficult as that will be it is a challenge I look forward too.

Thanks Werner :thumbs: I will try to follow up with your suggestions and I thank everyone for their input.

Now if only some hardy Altums would show up I'd be in business :drunk:

[DanGofCalgary]

That was excellent info Werner. Wish I'd been able to attend that CAS meeting, sadly I had to golf in Phoenix that day!

Edit: spelling

Edited December 15, 2010 by DanGofCalgary

[Fishnerd]

It looks like Altums will be available next week. while I wait for a R/O unit I can use those 5 gallon jugs of R/O water that are used for water coolers to initially fill my tank correct... understanding that i need several of course

[jvision]

Yep, you can. When I was breeding WC Apistos back in the day, I often used 10gal (2jugs) of R/O, then topped up a 15 gal, and used Peat in the filter. I read articles of people using 100% R/O plus peat to breed stuff like Checkerboards and Altums. The main reason I wouldn't use 100% R/O is that it has little to no buffering capacity - that means it simply can't hold a steady pH. Tap water helps maintain the pH at an ideal level.

[Fishnerd]

Good to know Jason thanx looks like my local grocery store is in for a surprise when I walk in there and clean em out of their water lol...

so would you recommend I top it off with say 20% tap water to ensure a buffer when I add peat to the sump ..that sounds about right to me..

This is gonna be fun.. :thumbs:

I'm so stoked about Altums I've been meaning to get my hands on em for years :tongue:

So Dan I guess when initially changing to soft water it's a good thing 8 gallons a day is the units limit to ease stress on the fish I suppose it could be a shocker otherwise ? This water chemistry thing could be fun but stressful if one is not careful

I am always interested in others experiences both good and bad

[werner]

The main reason I wouldn't use 100% R/O is that it has little to no buffering capacity - that means it simply can't hold a steady pH. Tap water helps maintain the pH at an ideal level.

Don't forget about killing the fish! In a freshwater aquarium, water is continually diffusing into a fish. In water with little or no mineral content, there is greater pressure on your fish's kidneys to excrete it, and the stresses from transport, disease or trauma can be too much. I would never use straight R/O water. Some proportion of tap water should be mixed in to maintain a healthy osmoregulatory system (to calculate this, see the Pearson's Square diagram in the Soft Water Aquarium article I linked to previously.)

Acclimation to new conditions should be made very slowly- especially if your importer/fish store has acclimated the fish to tapwater and you're going to change it back to softer water.

Another excellent article: Osmoregulation in Freshwater Fish

[Fishnerd]

ooher this get more and more interesting as time goes on

more good info keep it coming ...