Starting Out, Lots Of Conflicting Info,

[kindasleepy]

Hi guys. So I'm finally getting my saltie up (35 gal) and running in a few weeks but like in fresh water, everyone seems to be doing it differently. I've got some questions (a lot).

Mechanical Filtration:

Most of my books about salt say to use mechanical filtration in the filters (like foam or poly) and change it regularly to keep it from becoming nitrate heavy. Here on the forum I hear a lot of you say that you gut your filters and fill them with rubble, or rubble and carbon. Why is that? Why is using rubble any different than the ceramic biomax as a biological filter? Wouldn't you still want biological, chemical AND mechanical filtration? I realize that the bioload and types of bacteria etc in a salt tank differs from a freshwater tank but the basic filtration principals should be the same right?

Protein Skimmers

Again, lots of conflicting info about whether or not you should skim in the first place (removing too many nutrients etc), how big the skimmer should be etc. What do you guys recommend for a 35gal?

Water

A 35 gallon wouldn't be impossible for me to fill with purchased RO water but would be a huge pain in the butt to have to continually have to get it to do maintenance. Tap water is certainly the easier way to go. So do I have to remove the phosphates? If yes, how do you guys do this? Any easy ways to make RO at home on a small scale?

And lastly...for now anyway. I keep hearing conflicting info on mandarin gobies. I'd LOVE LOVE LOVE to have one but I'm told (and have read in at least one book) that they need significantly larger tanks because of their eating habits. True? Not true?

I'm open to any suggestions on how to get this baby going.

Thanks

[ckmullin]

There are salt people here however also seek out salt dedicated forums...canreef etc.

Regarding ro water...purchase an ro unit and use the waste water for your house hold plants etc...what I do. Nothing lost, only gained. For a reef you cannot use tap and get proper results from my reading.

All I can say as I don't keep salt.

[jvision]

A lot of people use a sump to hide all of the equipment, and have filter socks where the water comes into the sump from the tank - get at least 2 socks, so you can just swap. I don't use mechanical filtration on my FW canisters (just give them a good shake and back flush on WC day - really easy on Ehiems!), so you could get away with it on SW, too.

As for skimming, I'm not certain that it'd take out nutrients needed by corals or other inverts - I just don't see how that'd happen. I've heard anecdotal evidence that a diatom filter will take out nutrients, but unless the needed nutrients are bound to the proteins and other waste that are foaming out, there's no need to worry. I would get the biggest skimmer you can fit/afford.

IME, using Edmonton tap water w/o carbon and/or a phosphate resin, fighting algae is a constant battle. You can get RO units online for about $100 and will last you for a really long time before needing to replace the membrane. Keep an eye on Kijiji and CanReef, as they sometimes come available for a really good price.

Mandrins aren't commercially raised, so they're pretty much all wild caught and are very hard to train onto prepared foods. They love to munch on the different pods (cope, anthro, etc.) that live in the LR, which is why most people say to wait until the tank is at least a year old and has a very large colony of pods b/c that's going to be the only thing your Mandarin will eat. However, I did read one article by a man who's actually bred and raised Mandarins that said that he trained his onto prepared foods by placing pellets into a jar that sat on the bottom of the tank. I can't remember off hand if it was just the fish that he raised, or if he managed to train his original wild stock as well; but, it's worth a try (on an older system that already has pods, so they don't starve to death).

HTH

[kindasleepy]

That's exactly part of the problem. I keep hearing conflicting info EVERYWHERE including Canreef. I've taken care of salt tanks in the past and know the chemistry etc but I've never built one from the ground up. I'm reminded of how people come in to the store and tell me that they've been told by a friend of a friend of a friend that the only way to cycle a freshwater tank is to put a chopped off goldfish head in the tank as it's first source of ammonia (the idea of putting a prawn in there sounds a lot like this).

The purpose of this post is to get an average of how people are starting and maintaining their successful systems. I'm seeing a lot of instructions but with little information as to WHY people are doing things in certain ways. Advice is welcome but I want to know why people are doing something not just get told to do it, you know?

[kindasleepy]

A lot of people use a sump to hide all of the equipment, and have filter socks where the water comes into the sump from the tank - get at least 2 socks, so you can just swap. I don't use mechanical filtration on my FW canisters (just give them a good shake and back flush on WC day - really easy on Ehiems!), so you could get away with it on SW, too.

As for skimming, I'm not certain that it'd take out nutrients needed by corals or other inverts - I just don't see how that'd happen. I've heard anecdotal evidence that a diatom filter will take out nutrients, but unless the needed nutrients are bound to the proteins and other waste that are foaming out, there's no need to worry. I would get the biggest skimmer you can fit/afford.

IME, using Edmonton tap water w/o carbon and/or a phosphate resin, fighting algae is a constant battle. You can get RO units online for about $100 and will last you for a really long time before needing to replace the membrane. Keep an eye on Kijiji and CanReef, as they sometimes come available for a really good price.

Mandrins aren't commercially raised, so they're pretty much all wild caught and are very hard to train onto prepared foods. They love to munch on the different pods (cope, anthro, etc.) that live in the LR, which is why most people say to wait until the tank is at least a year old and has a very large colony of pods b/c that's going to be the only thing your Mandarin will eat. However, I did read one article by a man who's actually bred and raised Mandarins that said that he trained his onto prepared foods by placing pellets into a jar that sat on the bottom of the tank. I can't remember off hand if it was just the fish that he raised, or if he managed to train his original wild stock as well; but, it's worth a try (on an older system that already has pods, so they don't starve to death).

HTH

Thanks.

[425nm]

What is it about Edmonton's tap that makes keeping algae at bay so hard?

[polleni-puffer]

I went through the same ordeal.

I use tap water for my reef tank ,and everything is fine. I use GFO to keep algae at bay ,it works really well at removing phosphates.

Also I just use a canister filter with filter sponge ,bio-blocks and water polishers.

[ckmullin]

Strongly suggest then since it sounds you've basically exhausted resources for reading and advice is to get you feet wet and just do it. We learn most from mistakes. While we try to minimize them, they are very important.

As the Nike slogan "just do it"

[kindasleepy]

Sorry, what's GFO?

[RD.]

Mandrins aren't commercially raised, so they're pretty much all wild caught and are very hard to train onto prepared foods.

Agreed, not an easy fish to get onto prepared foods, but I do know a number of people that have managed to train their wild caught Mandarins onto NLS pellets. Also, Ora Farms is breeding and raising Mandarins in captivity, and one of the foods they feed their juvies is NLS Small Fish formula.

As far as I can tell, Ora is still breeding Blue, Spotted, and Red Mandarins in captivity. Click on the pics in the following link for more info. http://www.orafarm.com/products/fish/dragonets/

HTH

[blink]

My fiancee went from basically zero salt water knowledge to having an attractive, healthy salt water tank in not very many months. We learned a couple hard lessons along the way (don't buy fish which aren't quarantined unless you're going to quarantine them at home) and we learned a few easy ones by asking people how they did it, there have been a few stores which have been particularly helpful, feel free to PM if you'd like to know who.

Edited May 21, 2012 by blink

[sirruckus]

sometimes using stuff like RO/DI water filters are just a means to remove all potential problems - when we are in a hobby with so many potentially deadly variables, we try to minimize those as much as possible.

You an always go to the store and fill a 5 gallon jug or two when you need to do a routine water change - you should try to check that water quality too however, not all "filtered" water is...filtered to what we expect

[xeus_blackcity]

Hi guys. So I'm finally getting my saltie up (35 gal) and running in a few weeks but like in fresh water, everyone seems to be doing it differently. I've got some questions (a lot).

Mechanical Filtration:

Most of my books about salt say to use mechanical filtration in the filters (like foam or poly) and change it regularly to keep it from becoming nitrate heavy. Here on the forum I hear a lot of you say that you gut your filters and fill them with rubble, or rubble and carbon. Why is that? Why is using rubble any different than the ceramic biomax as a biological filter? Wouldn't you still want biological, chemical AND mechanical filtration? I realize that the bioload and types of bacteria etc in a salt tank differs from a freshwater tank but the basic filtration principals should be the same right?

Protein Skimmers

Again, lots of conflicting info about whether or not you should skim in the first place (removing too many nutrients etc), how big the skimmer should be etc. What do you guys recommend for a 35gal?

Water

A 35 gallon wouldn't be impossible for me to fill with purchased RO water but would be a huge pain in the butt to have to continually have to get it to do maintenance. Tap water is certainly the easier way to go. So do I have to remove the phosphates? If yes, how do you guys do this? Any easy ways to make RO at home on a small scale?

And lastly...for now anyway. I keep hearing conflicting info on mandarin gobies. I'd LOVE LOVE LOVE to have one but I'm told (and have read in at least one book) that they need significantly larger tanks because of their eating habits. True? Not true?

I'm open to any suggestions on how to get this baby going.

Thanks

Mechanical filtration:

Many people use mechanical filtration (most common being filter socks in sump) but its just personal preference. When I had HOB filter in my 20 gallon reef, I used a sponge in it. But when I moved to 70 gallon with sump, the mechanical barrier caused problems with water level in the sump so I removed it. Sponges/floss/filter socks just add a layer of extra source of removing detritus but also adds a very strict maintenance schedule (clean every 2/3 days). About the pieces of live rock, many people use it in sump/filters just like ceramic blocks. Gives greater surface area for bacteria to grow and work.

Protein skimmer:

Possibly the most debated topic in salty side. It all depends on what sort of tank you tank and how often you are ready to do water change. For my 20 gallon, I didn't use protein skimmer for like 6 months till I started noticing that my water change was not keeping up the health of the system (it had 50+ corals and 8 fishes) so I added a skimmer. There are many systems, both big and small, which don't use skimmer and are equally beautiful. If you want to put a skimmer in your 35 gallon, I would say go for AquaC remora or reef octopus. Deltec are the best but are extremely expensive.

Water:

Some people say RODI is a MUST but not necessarily. Its just that tap water has a very high variability from season to season. Its not just the phosphate that can feed algae but many other sources, like silicate. RODI just makes sure that nothing bad gets into the water. Its not a mandatory thing (again, I ran my 20 gallon using tap water) but its just an insurance.

Mandarines need food almost whole day. Many can get them to eat frozen food but again, they make sure that food is almost always available to them. Captive bred are very expensive. If you really want one, start the tank, add pods, wait for 6 months or something, see if you have pods all over the tank, go to LFS and see if the mandarine eats frozen and buy. Its not impossible but its hard.

[uwish]

Sorry, what's GFO?

GFO is Granulated Ferric Oxide and is used primarily in a reactor to reduce phosphate levels which in turn will control unwanted Algae.

Just to chime in on some other things you brought up. Skimming IMHO is one of the most important aspects of REEF tanks. Does that mean you can't have a tank without one? No, BUT if you want to keep corral, it is highly recommended. I am of the thought that no matter what skimmer you use, it's size etc you will never 'remove all' the nutrients from the water. Mother nature's Oceans are significantly more efficient than we can be in removing nutrients from the water so I am NOT of the thought line that you will remove too many if you use a skimmer. If you choose NOT to have a skimmer, and there are many reef keepers that do; you can expect (in general) slower corral growth and likely larger and more frequent water changes.

As for water, I would agree with most of the comments so far, you can used treated tap water BUT you will likely experience issues down the road with algae and poor corral growth. If you want a FOWLR salt tank, then many people have success with using treated tap water.

Saltwater tanks don't have to be more consuming of both time and money but, from my experience saltwater tanks are less forgiving of poor water quality than fresh water tanks. The livestock are not only more sensitive to water parameters, but they cost more too! So crashing a saltwater tank can be more expensive than crashing a fresh water tank (I am speaking generally of course).

I have a 250Gal FOWLR peninsula tank...I run GFO, Carbon, Skimmer. Started with dry "dead" rock and sand, RO/DI water and used a bottled Nitrifying Bacteria (Dr. Tom's one and only). My tank uses dual Dorso overflows into my sump filtered mechanically by filter socks.

I find when I don't run carbon the water turns slightly yellow and never as clear and I won't risk running without GFO, it's just too large a tank to deal with a significant algae blowout.