vic622 Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 It's no longer an emergency, cause 3 of my 4 Bala's (3-4") have already croaked - 1 per week to week-half over the past 4-5 weeks. The 1st was looking scawny, but otherwise fine, the last two seemed healthy and then went belly-up. I had been doing a preventative treament using Nox-Ich during this time as part of a cycling & anti-stress regime along with Cycle+AquaPlus+WasteControl all at recomended amounts per the manufacturer. Then, yesterday, I read that Bala's (may) have a sensitivity to malachite green, the active ingredient in Nox-Ich and other anti-ich treaments. Has anyone heard of this before? Are there any other critters with a similar sensitivity? Clown Loaches, perhaps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvision Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 I've resisted using these chemical treatments b/c such-and-such a fish may not like it. IME, salt is about as good as it gets for prevention and stress relief - and it's not going to kill your fish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FishBrain Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 I have heard that Balas and clown loaches dont like it very much. I always use salt to try and stop most problems before or during occurance. I am curious tho, what are your water parameters? Ammonia,nitrate,nitrite? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsmith Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Yes, I'm pretty sure I've heard that clown loaches don't do well with ick treatments. Also, that Waste Control stuff produces a lot of Ammonia in your tank so you should always do a large water change the day after you use it. IMO it does more harm than good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyb440 Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 More sensitive fish (clown loaches, balas) can usually be treated with a half dosage of malachite green containing medications. Some, such as Formalite III also contain formaldehyde and are also quite effective for ich. Maracide (acriflavin based, IIRC) is a safer treatment for many fish, although it doesn't always work as well. In a lot of cases, upping the temperature to ~83 F and maybe adding salt for a few days will work, but for those really stubborn infections the above meds are probably your best bet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vallisneria Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 I had been doing a preventative treament using Nox-Ich during this time as part of a cycling & anti-stress regime along with Cycle+AquaPlus+WasteControl all at recomended amounts per the manufacturer. Personally, the best preventative is good clean water. Add ing all those chemicals if probably doing more harm then good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vapor Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 After an outbreak of ick a while back I learned the hard way about malichite green. I lost one of my loaches :cry: :mad: . This was even after the lfs said to use only half the dose recomended. Stick with salt and heat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vic622 Posted February 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 Wish I'dda used the salt My parameters are okay - 0's on both nitrite & ammonia (haven't picked up the nitrate & phosphate kits, yet). I change about 5-7gal (~40g tank) every 2-3 days as I have a high fish load in this tank. That's when I was adding the chemicals - I wonder if I should just add the AquaPlus conditioner & skip the others - except possibly weekly or monthly. I suspected the malachite green after reading the article & because I then realised that an otherwise healthy Bala had croaked the morning following a treatment. What is the recommended dose of salt/gal and what type of salt? I assume iodized table salt is not recommended. :eh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midgetwaiter Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 The nox-ich can cause problems with pretty much any tetra, balas are just big tetras. Preventative chemical treatments are not a good idea, all of the products used to kill parasites are very hard on your fish. You will probably find that both Cycle and Waste-Control are useless. Cycle has a marginal at best effect on growth of new bactera populations. It breaks down wastes faster to provide food for the colonies, this can be good and bad but either way does not speed up the process of maturing a new aquarium very much. Waste control is a clumper, it gets stuff to stick together so it will be picked up by the filter. IME, it doesn't actually do much at all. The best way to establish your new tank is to seed it with some bio media or some gravel from your other tank, this way you are adding live bacteria. I know that you are doing the best you can for your fish so I hope you take what I said above as contructive. I suspect that you were given some bad advice from somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vapor Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 http://cichlid-forum.com/articles/ich.php Try this site. I found it to be quite informative. You can also just google ick. Sorry about your fish. :cry: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midgetwaiter Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 What is the recommended dose of salt/gal and what type of salt? I assume iodized table salt is not recommended. :eh: You can use up to a tablespoon per gallon, at that point your plants are dead meat though. The linked article explains it in more detail. As far as the salt goes, it doesn't really matter if it is iodized or not as the ammount of iodine added in miniscule (just a few parts per million). Just another net myth, use wahtever you have handy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vic622 Posted February 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 Thanks everyone for the suggestions & advice. I'll post a longer reply when I've had some sleep - I got the call at 1:30am & I was out plowing snow all night :boxed: Vic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 27, 2006 Report Share Posted February 27, 2006 Any sensitive fish such as tetras, loaches, puffers, and other "scaleless" fish seem to have a predisposition to Ich when introduced to new tanks. I find that the best way to counteract this is to place them in a quarantine tank with a moderately high temperature. Anything above 80'F, and the Ich parasite's life cycle is shortened drastically. After a couple weeks in there, slowly lower the temp of the water, and then transfer the fish. Voila! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vic622 Posted February 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2006 Aren't you still potentially going to have the ich problem after the transfer because the old tank is not high temp? Any sensitive fish such as tetras, loaches, puffers, and other "scaleless" fish seem to have a predisposition to Ich when introduced to new tanks. I find that the best way to counteract this is to place them in a quarantine tank with a moderately high temperature. Anything above 80'F, and the Ich parasite's life cycle is shortened drastically. After a couple weeks in there, slowly lower the temp of the water, and then transfer the fish. Voila! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 27, 2006 Report Share Posted February 27, 2006 (edited) As temperature controls the speed of the lifecycle of the parasite, The life cycle of the Ich is a complex one, as by the time you see it on your fish it is already in the adult stages of its life. The general consensus is that Ich has a lifespan of about 10 to 14 days, while there are those in the science world that will go as far to say the lifespan will be as long as 20 days. When you first see Ich it will appear as grains of salt on your fish. By the time that you see it as stated before it’s in its final stages and ready to reproduce. After falling off of the host, it becomes free swimming and will fall to the bottom of the tank or attach itself to rocks and decoration in the tank. Once the cyst settles in begins to multiply by dividing itself up to as many as 2,000 times. The result of this division produces what is called Tomites. The time frame for this division can vary. In a tank that is 77 degrees F, the tomites will only require about 12 hours to complete this stage as where in a tank of 50 degrees F it may require months to complete. After the formation of the tomites is complete, they emerge from the cyst as free swimming Theronts. At this stage of their life they are looking for new hosts to feed on. After finding their new host, they will penetrate the fish’s skin and then become Trophozites where the cycle of life begins again. If a Theronts is unable to find a new host within 24 they will usually die. " ~http://www.fishforever.co.uk/ich.html If the Theront's lifecycle is sped up by the temp of the water, as is all the other stages of the parasite, I would assume that that timeframe of 24 hours is significantly shortened. Ideally, you'll want to aerate the water, as oxygen isn't as soluble in warmer water. If you choose to medicate, do so lightly, only to speed up the process. If after a week or two you do not see any white spots on your fish, wait at least another week (or two if you feel more comfortable), and then begin to lower the temp of the water and begin to acclimatize the fish to its future tank environment. Ich is most often brought into the tank or pond on new fish or plants (not if they are quarantined!). However, it is also believed that some survivors of an Ich infection can become latent carriers, with the parasites forming a latent stage at protected sites such as the base of fins or the gills. Subsequent stress or poor conditions can awaken white spot to re-infect either its host or other fish. This certainly seems to be the case with koi, when often small numbers of trophonts are often found alongside severe fluke, Trichodina or Costia infestations, even in ponds which have not had any new introductions. ~http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/disease/whitespot.htm I believe if treated properly in the first place, I don't think that one would have to worry about this. Edited February 27, 2006 by Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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