Vet Med in Aquaria

[joeysgreen]

As many of you are aware my background is in reptiles. I am also an animal health technologist and working slowing to get into vet school. Now that you know this, you'll know that I kinda slant everything to a vet med/doctor-patient viewpoint. With reptiles, people often don't take them to the vet for many reasons (albiet usually money) and want to treat things on their own. This often involves potentially dangerous medications, and procedures that cross the line into animal cruelty.

Now that I"m entering the world of aquaria, I see what I've already known to be true, and that's self medicating, and recently discussed, self sedating ect. Fish are different in that it's even more difficult to find a fish vet than a reptile vet. I do understand why fish enthusiasts treat things at home, but my question is where do you draw the line? What would you do if things "got over your head"? Are there any vets that you use?

Thanks for the insight

Ian

[Toirtis]

No, aside from diagnostic equipment and meds, I know more on both herps and fish than any of the local vets...it is the vets who come to me, sadly.

[midgetwaiter]

The vet issue is a tricky one. I've only been keeping herps for a few years but I really jumped in with both feet and had some pretty experienced people to learn from, Tortis among them. I also spent a lot of time at my grandfather and uncle's farms growing up so I have a little bit of practical experience as well. I have access to veterinary texts and can understand almost all of the information in them. I have screwed up pretty bad a couple times too and have learned from it.

I've never personally taken a herp to a vet, I just haven't needed to. I have seen scores of my customers come to see us with "the vet just told me x" though and let me tell you, NOT very encouraging. Some are definitely better than others but locally there are a couple real dingbats with vet licences. It's not so much that I won't pay $75 to get my turtle examined. It's that I won't pay $75 to have a vet recommend a vit A shot that stands a decent chance of killing my turtle all on it's own.

I also have a real problem with the way vets price some procedures. If you call ahead of time you will be told that the procedure will cost $X and if you ask will be told that price is determined by a table published by the College of Veterinarians every year. That's nice but it's BS. I found when I was looking for a place to neuter my rabbit that the cost varied by over 200% Why if it is set by the same reference is this true? How do I made the decision? IS the cheaper place not doing something important or is the more expensive place doing something extravagant?

As for local vets with fish experience? Not any that I am aware of. As a matter of fact it is difficult to find anyone globally with expertise treating fish disease that isn't from a commercial aquaculture background. Erik Johnson is the only one that comes to mind in fact. I agree that the way people diagnose and self medicate with in the aquarium hobby is often disgraceful but I don't see a lot of places for them to get the information and support they need to do it well.

Edited August 24, 2006 by midgetwaiter

[dunl]

It's disheartening to call a vet to ask for Metronidazole for your cichlids, and hear "For your WHAAA?"

[Vallisneria]

I don't use vets because my experiences have been they don't usually know anything about fish, and most aren't too familiar with reptiles.

I think if i was keeping expensive fish like arowanas or rays then i might be inclined to seek out a professional, but for my regular "cheap" fish its not really worth it and probably wouldn't help any more then searching online and treating myself.

I do know that there is a fish vet in Edmonton(or a vet that is atleast willing to try and treat a fish). Krystle took her goldfish there when it was sick. Not exactly sure how knowledgable the vet is or how much experience they have treating fish, but its good to know there are some willing to try.

I remember calling my vet and asking for some Metronidazole for my fish and he had no clue that people even treated their fish when they got sick.

I"ve also had bad experiences with vets and reptiles, even with the so called "reptile vets" around Edmonton. When i've taken my box turtle the doctors didn't really know much more then I did about him and had no idea what could be wrong. I even had one vet say that i was wrong and he wasn't a male, but turns out he was actually wrong but didn't want to listen to me.

So i try to stay away from vets for my reptiles unless there is something seriously wrong with them and I think the vets could help.

[Ichthyosporidium]

I used to do alot of buisness with a vet in Red Deer when I was working at an LFS at the time. He is very knowledgable with reptiles, but back when I was working, I too would have been called about a sick fish. There are Ichthyo vets but the only one that I know personally, practises in Florida.

[Melody]

The one and only time I talked to a vet about a fish condition, I only wanted to know if it was bacterial, viral or some obscure parasite. I basically needed him to look at a slide.

I swear to God, he GOOGLED IT!

He did offer to send it out for me ... can't remember the price but it was well over a hundred dollars. I said "No thanks". He didn't charge me... I guess something about my look said "I dare ya" lol.

So my advice is to call and ask for the extent of their experience, if nothing else.

[joeysgreen]

While it's disheartening to see the obvious gap between owners and veterinarians with these animals, I see where it's coming from.

For reptiles, phone around and find a vet that you trust with your herps and then stick with them. Then the money will be well spent.

see www.arav.com

For fish, sadly, I don't know what to recommend.

As per the billing question/comment. The Alberta Veterinary Medical Association has a recommended billing guide. More and more vets are following this +/- a little bit, while others still feel low cutting prices is the way to go. In my experience, this also low cuts service.

Ian

[Madness]

I once had a customer come into my store that had just taken her dying chameleon to a vet here in calgary to have it checked out/put down, and was told that she had a "perfectly healthy iguana". The vet still tried to charge her for the visit when she told him that he was full of it. It's kind of scary that a vet would try and charge someone for a checkup on an animal that he did not know anything about, let alone how to diagnose a problem.

[a1foxes]

As many of you are aware my background is in reptiles. I am also an animal health technologist and working slowing to get into vet school. Now that you know this, you'll know that I kinda slant everything to a vet med/doctor-patient viewpoint. With reptiles, people often don't take them to the vet for many reasons (albiet usually money) and want to treat things on their own. This often involves potentially dangerous medications, and procedures that cross the line into animal cruelty.

Now that I"m entering the world of aquaria, I see what I've already known to be true, and that's self medicating, and recently discussed, self sedating ect. Fish are different in that it's even more difficult to find a fish vet than a reptile vet. I do understand why fish enthusiasts treat things at home, but my question is where do you draw the line? What would you do if things "got over your head"? Are there any vets that you use?

Thanks for the insight

Ian

I used to think that vets should know everything about domestic animals/pets, thats why

they go to school for 4 years right? Well, I entered the world of rabbits more than 25 years

ago, and to my dismay I was told by one vet that in his entire years at school, rabbits were

given only 1 day. I have used a vet for 2 rabbit problems- 1 needed stitches or he would

bleed to death and the other was so malnourished he needed an IV and vitamin shots to

survive. Since then I can give my own. I have used vets for rabbits to get health

certificates required by airlines when I ship them, usually to the US or overseas. I

usually end up telling the vet what they need to check for, and most dont really know

that rabbits dont get immunizations....There are alot of pet/domestic rabbits out there,

and one reason most will never see a vet is money, but another is that vets dont know

anything about them anyway. Rabbits were the reason I got into microbiology in the

first place, now I simply buy my own supplies at UFA or the farm vets' office and

treat myself. I used to produce commercially, 300 fry per month and a base herd

of 600. Tens of thousand of animals. Thats more than any vet. The only thing I lack

is a lab of my own, and even without one I can do my own cultures if need be. Its

so bad, really, I don't want to waste my trying to talk with someone who is not only

clueless, but not even motivated enough to learn stuff on their own . There are the

odd ones who are at least willing to try, but they are few and far between, and most

of us with less common species are so disgusted with past experiences we dont even

want to try anymore either. If we do, guaranteed a big bill whether the outcome is

good or not . If its a $50 rabbit or a $200 reptile, a $200 bill is alot.

[Ichthyosporidium]

I used to think that vets should know everything about domestic animals/pets, thats why

they go to school for 4 years right?

Actually, I believe it is eight years for general, 10 to specialise.

[a1foxes]

I used to think that vets should know everything about domestic animals/pets, thats why

they go to school for 4 years right?

Actually, I believe it is eight years for general, 10 to specialise.

thought it was 4 yrs in school the 4 yrs practical

[Ichthyosporidium]

Yeah, I still consider practical as education though. So basically 6 years of class and lab and 4 of practical to specialise.

Curiously, in warmer climes, Ichthyo-vets are more common. You can find them in California and Florida. It does make sense as there are some seroius collectors in those areas.

[Toirtis]

Curiously, in warmer climes, Ichthyo-vets are more common. You can find them in California and Florida. It does make sense as there are some seroius collectors in those areas.

Not so curious when you consider that Miami-Dade has a population of 6+ million and greater LA has 13+ million...thats a lot more potential customers than all but one metro area in Canada (Toronto has just barely 6 million...and probably at least a single fish-vet)...and lot of high-end fish keepers down there.

[joeysgreen]

First, it's a minimum of 2 years prevet university, but often more. THen it's a 4 year cram session of books and practical learning in a vet college. So minimally 6 years to be a vet. Specialization is a different story, and will depend on what you want to specialize in and what avenues you will take to acheive this.

Second, past experiences are a poor excuse to shun an entire profession as important as animal health; especially if they are a friends, or a friend of a friends ect. as you're getting only a slanted side of the story. In addition, veterinary medicine is ever evolving, and what was the norm 5 years ago likely isn't the same. If you do'nt like or trust the vet you have with the species you're working with, then find one you do.

Furthermore, it's impossible to know everything, and the best vets realize this. If your vet is quick with answers to everything off the top of his head, I"d perhaps question it a bit more than one who likes to research and double check.

"aside from diagnostic equipment and meds, I know more on both herps and fish than any of the local vets...it is the vets who come to me, sadly." Consider that there are 6500 species of reptiles and considerable more species of fish, do you really expect a vet to be an expert on the care, husbandry and breeding of all these? With most exotic species readily available in the pet trade, it's up to the owner to be the expert on care, while the veterinarian can apply medical advice as an umbrella over many species. The vet SHOULD however, have a keen interest in the animals they see and be versed enough to be able to relate husbandry problems to medical health. An easy example is a recovering reptile should be at the higher end of it's thermogradient. The vet will recommend this, but perhaps not know that with a uroplatus this is only 78C.

An aside from all this pessimism more and more vets are signing onto the veterinary information network. This is a subscription, vet-only resource site that allows your local vet to work with the ictho and herpo specialists in California, Florida, and elsewhere. They have paid specialists from every field standing buy to discuss cases; as well as online classes (I"ve taken, and especially enjoyed Basic Reptile Medicine), and a resource database that is verging on colossal. There was a recent Intermediate Fish Medicine class available, but I"d already spent all of my CE money

I enjoy this thread, and the discussions evolving from it.

Ian