Some species are very hard to differentiate!

[roypark05]

Good example here:

"Pseudotropheus Cyaneorhabdos" as according to Nandopsis's Cichlid Index:

"Pseudotropheus Msobo" as according to cichlidlovers.com:

I'm pretty sure this is the same fish here, but with two different species names under the same genus. I notice that the Pseudotropheus Elongatus "Chewere" is very similar as well, although I think I can see the difference between that species and the one/two confused above.

I'm guessing that Nandopsis is confusing this fish as an Electric Blue Johanni which I believe he is not.

How is a new species of cichlid determined? Is there a governing body that has the final say in species determination?

Edited October 8, 2008 by roypark05

[jvision]

The two fish are in fact different species. Coloratoin, tho similar, is quite different. Count the scales and fin rays, as well as teeth rows, and you'll see that these fish are different, indeed!

The Electric Blue Johanni has been moved to a different Genus - it is now Melanochromis cyaneorhabdos. Nandopsis didn't name this fish, BTW, he just provided the link to a different site.

Species names are determined by scientists studying the systematics of speciation, and when they discover that a species is in fact different (using characteristics mentioned above and more) the person/people doing that research get to name the new species.

[roypark05]

So you're telling me that not only are these fish indeed of different species, they are of different genus as well!?!?!?

I can't believe it...look at the blue pattern on the face - it's identical! Not to mention the coloration of ALL the fins is exactly the same. What do you mean by counting scales and fin rays?

---oh and thanks for correcting me about the cichlid index and Nandopsis's involvement.

Edited October 8, 2008 by roypark05

[jvision]

What do you mean by counting scales and fin rays?

That's really how you tell different species apart. Look at species like Goldfish. There are a whole bunch of SERIOUSLY different shapes and colors of goldfish, but they're all the same species. I'm pretty sure that all of our domestic dog breeds are the same species as well. Of course, I'm using the exact opposite point you're making about these cichlids, but you get what I'm saying. Just because species look the same, or different, doesn't mean they are.

Scientists usually use much more complex ways of differentiation than mere appearance to differentiate. When you start getting to know different fish from around the world, you'll see different species that look much more alike than the two fish in your first post (ie. Silver Dollars, bleeding heart tetras, etc).

[RD.]

Check out the females of each of those species, and you'll see what a huge difference there is.

Melanochromis cyaneorhabdos

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=756

Metriaclima sp. "Msobo"

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=801

[roypark05]

I know the Magunga females are orange so there's no confusing the females of these 2 species then!

Still confusing determining what my fish is, though. I'm fairly certain it's Pseudotropheus Msobo, but I'll let you guys make your own opinions when I post pictures of him. I should be able to do so some time next week.

[Ishkabod]

If you look at the middleish line on the two fish that sort of have circle like patterns on them you can easily see that the light and dark colours are switched. It's the dark line of colouring after the first light one when going top down on the first fish and it's the light bit of striped colouring going top down on the second fish.

At first they look almost identical but the colour pattern switch is dramatic when you really look at it.

It's quite interesting and good luck with your fish as i still have my mystery blue cichlid which i named Mr Blue.

Lisa

[roypark05]

Thanks for the replies, and I'm not trying to be argumentative with anyone, but when I look at those two pictures I still see the same fish. I can't wrap my mind around anything else. The shape, the fins, the colouration, the pattern of the blue...

One thing that gets me big time is the way the blue stripes come across the face of both fish. My fish has the exact same thing. I can't believe two completely separate species have that identical feature.

Also, what's the deal with the genus differences? All over the internet I see a species of fish (Msobo is a good example) that will be listed in 2 different genus. Some say Pseudotropheus Msobo and some say Metriaclima Msobo. What's the deal with that!? There are a lot of species like the Msobo who seem to be listed under more than one genus.

Back to the thread title, the bottom line is some species are hard as hell to differentiate! Hemichromis Jewels are another I have always had trouble with. I think I finally wrapped my mind around what makes the Lifalili different, but the Bimaculatus and Guttatus seem like the same damn fish!

[roypark05]

A supposed "bimaculatus":

vs

A supposed "guttatus":

Now what the hell is the difference there? 503 scales vs 504 scales or something!?!?!?!?

[African_Fever]

The cyaneorhabdos pictured above is a very bad example of what the species should look like, and might not even be a pure cyan. The stripes should be much more distinct, and not as blurry as they are. I've attached a pic from my tank; and it shows how distinct the stripes should be.

The different genus names are old, and were before people became more educated about fish and the differences and were based purely on external looks alone (Pseudotropheus is the old name for a lot of fish, Metriaclima is the new). To me, the bimac and guttatus look completely different - different body structure, different eye size.

The 'blue stripes across the face' of your fish could be at least 50 different species found within the lake, so aren't even a starting point for an ID. The dorsal fin on the cyan's is black with a white/blue edge, the msobo's is white.

Edited October 8, 2008 by African_Fever

[KevinW]

Roypark I am very interested to see what your Msobo looks like. I have had Msobos for a couple of years. The male looks somewhat different than the pictures on the web. I have also seen a Msobo at Big Als that looks more like the web pictures than mine. However my male looks almost identical to Fairdeal's (Harold's) breeder. (I think he recently sold his breeding group to someone on this site). Pictures are attached.

Mine has partial bars on his body while the standard pictures show banding and no bars. Does anyone else have pictures of their male Msobo? Any thoughts on the differences.

[firestorm]

I don't have a picture of my male msobo handy, but there is a huge difference. The msobo are naturally more blotchy looking, whereas the cyaneorhabdos does have clearer stripes. Compare a johanni and a cyaneorhabdos together as well, they are even more difficult to distinguish from each other than the msobo.

I don't know exactly why they have to go and change the genus of a fish, but my best guess is from further research into different species, they class them in a new genus based on similarities the fish have, which is why some people will call them by their old genus, and others their new. The new genus is just a way of saying they have things in common.

Don't worry, when I first started keeping cichlids, I could not tell the difference between some fish and others either, but once you get the hang of it and see many pictures it eventually gets ingrained in your head lol.

Edit: I forgot to add that the cyaneorhabdos is longer bodied, and the msobo tend to have thicker bodies. You can also tell by face shape, the msobo will have a more pointed nose, and the cyaneorhabdos has more of a rounded face. Which goes along with their genus. Metriaclima lombardoi have the same shape as the msobo do, and the melanochromis johanni or auratus have similar bodies and faces as the mainango. You will be able to tell the difference sooner or later

Edited October 9, 2008 by firestorm

[RD.]

The Electric Blue Johanni has been moved to a different Genus - it is now Melanochromis cyaneorhabdos

Oops, missed this first time around. Melanochromis johannii aka Electric Blue Johannii is NOT the same species as Melanochromis cyaneorhabdos. (johannii females are orange/yellow) The confusion comes from the fact that the "electric blue johannii" is an old trade name that is still used by many suppliers, which is what the LFS then mark them as.

In many cases fish marked at the LFS as M. johannii, are actually M. cyaneorhabdos.

[firestorm]

Really, I never knew that. I thought they were in the melanochromis genre. http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=760. So you are saying that the profile on cichlid-forum is wrong?

[roypark05]

I don't have a picture of my male msobo handy, but there is a huge difference. The msobo are naturally more blotchy looking, whereas the cyaneorhabdos does have clearer stripes. Compare a johanni and a cyaneorhabdos together as well, they are even more difficult to distinguish from each other than the msobo.

I don't know exactly why they have to go and change the genus of a fish, but my best guess is from further research into different species, they class them in a new genus based on similarities the fish have, which is why some people will call them by their old genus, and others their new. The new genus is just a way of saying they have things in common.

Don't worry, when I first started keeping cichlids, I could not tell the difference between some fish and others either, but once you get the hang of it and see many pictures it eventually gets ingrained in your head lol.

Edit: I forgot to add that the cyaneorhabdos is longer bodied, and the msobo tend to have thicker bodies. You can also tell by face shape, the msobo will have a more pointed nose, and the cyaneorhabdos has more of a rounded face. Which goes along with their genus. Metriaclima lombardoi have the same shape as the msobo do, and the melanochromis johanni or auratus have similar bodies and faces as the mainango. You will be able to tell the difference sooner or later

When I get my own internet connection I will be able to post pics of my fish and I will be sure to show you my Msobo. I got him at Big Al's they had 3 in the one tank and I bought the 2nd largest one. Maybe you saw him already. His colours are much better in my tank than they were at the store.