Building Refugium for FW- what plants to use?

[Parachromis1]

Hi, I'm turning my 60 gallon into a refugium for my 230 gallon cichlid tank.

I don't think I'll run any Co2 to start with, but will dose with Excel.

I was think 2-3 wpg of lighting, probably a power compact.

What Plants would live well in these conditions, and what type of substrate should I use?

Thanks.

[African_Fever]

From what I've seen with others, you want fast growing plants. I've been toying with the idea for a while too, and would probably end up using hornwort or vals. I think there wouldn't really be much point in dosing with excel because there should theoretically be enough waste etc. produced by the fish in the main tank to supply the plants. It would be counterproductive IMO to dose for extra plant growth.

[werner]

This sounds interesting. I'm guessing you're doing this as filtration for the 230? Any additional filters/sumps planned?

I think CO2 is probably going to be your biggest issue. Dosing Excel on 290 gallons of water is going to get expensive really fast- you may want to put the $$ into pressurized CO2 right away.

With pressurized CO2 you will get some loss to the atmosphere, so you will want to minimize any splashing/pouring that may occur in the 230 gal portion of the system (eg. filter returns, overflows, sumps, etc.)

Types of plants: you should be able to grow most plants with 3wpg and CO2. If you're planning lots of compact ground cover plants, you may want to go with a bit more light, though.

Are you wanting the 60 gal to do the majority of the filtration for the 230? Fill it with fast growing stem plant species that will suck up the N and P.

Substrate: Any plain washed gravel about 1-3mm in size will do (sandblasting grits, play sand). You can add in some mulm from an existing tank to give it a bit of a head start on nutrients. Or, if you haven't spent all of your money on this project yet, you can go with a commercial plant substrate like Fluorite, Eco Complete, etc.

[werner]

I think there wouldn't really be much point in dosing with excel because there should theoretically be enough waste etc. produced by the fish in the main tank to supply the plants. It would be counterproductive IMO to dose for extra plant growth.

The fish should be able to provide most/all of the N and P through their waste, however the plants will need more than that. A carbon source (Excel is an alternative to CO2 addition) is essential to the kind of plant growth needed here- C from the fish respiration won't be nearly enough. You will also still need to be dosing traces and possibly K. Iron addition is a must.

[Parachromis1]

Well thank you guys!!!

I was thinking I might have to use Co2, instead of using Excel or another addative besides Iron.

This is going to be my Nitrate removal system.

I am going to have approx. 25 gallons of bio balls before this, and then water polishing pads after the plant setup.

I'm in the middle of cutting glass and whatnot, I'll take some pictures when I really start this up.

[Vallisneria]

Sounds like an interesting setup. Please take some pics of it when its ready.

I agree with Werner, stem plants will be the way to go. They suck up Nitrates like crazy. Or you could even go barebottom and just fill the tank with something like star/naja grass which is a floating plant. Naja grass is a quick grower and sucks up tons of nitrates. Its also a flaoting plant but fills the whole tank , it doesn't just float on top.Even java moss would work. I have a barebottom filled with naja and it works great and keeping the nitrates at 0 in my heavily stocked tank.

I also agree that pressurized co2 is the way to go in such a big tank. The amount of Excel you'd need would be huge and very costly to does that tank.

[jvision]

If you want your fuge for nutrient export, then you really want terrestrials with their roots in the water. Terrestrials take up WAY MORE nutrients than any aquatic plant b/c their biomass is quite substantial in comparison.

That being said, if you want to go with aquatics, I'd do what Val suggests - Najas. If you use a floating plant like Salvinia or Frogbit, you don't have to worry about CO2, as they'll get all they need from the air.

[firestorm]

I am slightly confused about this. If this is all going to be in the sump, will there not be too much of a strong water flow to keep floating plants? I would probably not want to go with any delicate type plants, or any really fine substrate like sand. I guess it depends on the section you are putting the plants in and how strong water flow will be going through it. I have some giant leaf hygro if you want that as a stem plant

[Parachromis1]

I think there wouldn't really be much point in dosing with excel because there should theoretically be enough waste etc. produced by the fish in the main tank to supply the plants. It would be counterproductive IMO to dose for extra plant growth.

The fish should be able to provide most/all of the N and P through their waste, however the plants will need more than that. A carbon source (Excel is an alternative to CO2 addition) is essential to the kind of plant growth needed here- C from the fish respiration won't be nearly enough. You will also still need to be dosing traces and possibly K. Iron addition is a must.

So what should I use for Co2 then?? A DIY setup, or is there something store bought that works as well? I run a little short on time, so a DIY setup would have to be quick and easy.

Sounds like an interesting setup. Please take some pics of it when its ready.

I agree with Werner, stem plants will be the way to go. They suck up Nitrates like crazy. Or you could even go barebottom and just fill the tank with something like star/naja grass which is a floating plant. Naja grass is a quick grower and sucks up tons of nitrates. Its also a flaoting plant but fills the whole tank , it doesn't just float on top.Even java moss would work. I have a barebottom filled with naja and it works great and keeping the nitrates at 0 in my heavily stocked tank.

I also agree that pressurized co2 is the way to go in such a big tank. The amount of Excel you'd need would be huge and very costly to does that tank.

So Naja's and Star grass seems the way to go? The water flow won't be overpowering either, I just want something that looks half decent, and sucks up Nitrates the best.

So Excel is a no go?

If you want your fuge for nutrient export, then you really want terrestrials with their roots in the water. Terrestrials take up WAY MORE nutrients than any aquatic plant b/c their biomass is quite substantial in comparison.

That being said, if you want to go with aquatics, I'd do what Val suggests - Najas. If you use a floating plant like Salvinia or Frogbit, you don't have to worry about CO2, as they'll get all they need from the air.

So what kind of terrestrial plants could I use? I was thinking some type of saltwater bamboo, I've seen this before, and it happened to work very very well.

And so let me get this straight, if I use 3-4 wpg of lighting, and I use Salvinia or Frogbit, I won't need to dose with Excel or Co2? Or just Co2?

Bare with me, I'm not used to this whole plant game lol.

[Parachromis1]

I am slightly confused about this. If this is all going to be in the sump, will there not be too much of a strong water flow to keep floating plants? I would probably not want to go with any delicate type plants, or any really fine substrate like sand. I guess it depends on the section you are putting the plants in and how strong water flow will be going through it. I have some giant leaf hygro if you want that as a stem plant

I designed a baffle setup that will have the waterflow controlled, and th eflow will not damage the plants whatsoever.

It is quite ingenious, I must say.

After my blueprint is all done, I shall put it up to share with you guys

[byte]

You could use a plant nicknamed "lucky bamboo" which is really Dracaena sanderiana.

http://www.wynia.org/wordpress/aquariums-a...-for-aquariums/

http://www.dampopo.com/bbs/view.php?id=free&no=82656

[Vallisneria]

Pothos, also called philodendron, works well. I use it in my betta's tank and I used to have it growing out the back of my african tank's filters.

[werner]

A DIY setup will probably not provide adequate CO2 for a 60gallon tank if you're going to use aquatic plants. However, if you're going to go with terrestrial plants (or floating aquatic plants) you won't need to add CO2- they get it from the atmosphere.

Here's some info regarding terrestrial plants as filtration:

Plant Filters for Home Aquaria

Plants as Filters

[jvision]

For terrestrials, I have used Pothos, phillodendron, ivy, peace lilly, and angel wings. If you want them to start filtering right away, rinse the dirt off the roots, and put the roots and some of the stem in the water, but make sure the leaves stay dry.

If you're going to use CO2, get a pressurised system - you can piece them together from welding supply shops for around $150, but if you buy a complete setup at the LFS it'll run you between $200-$300. CO2 is only necessary for aquatic plants. And you could probably get away without it for Najas.

If you go with floating plants, you won't need a CO2 system.

The reason Excel is not a viable option is that you'll likely have to use 1/2 a bottle a week for your system (just the sump is 60gal, right?).

[Parachromis1]

Pothos, also called philodendron, works well. I use it in my betta's tank and I used to have it growing out the back of my african tank's filters.

Thanks Val, I'm gonna go out and get a couple of these plants.

A DIY setup will probably not provide adequate CO2 for a 60gallon tank if you're going to use aquatic plants. However, if you're going to go with terrestrial plants (or floating aquatic plants) you won't need to add CO2- they get it from the atmosphere.

Here's some info regarding terrestrial plants as filtration:

Plant Filters for Home Aquaria

Plants as Filters

Thanks Werner, those are quite good readings.

I wouldn't mind using aquatic plants over terrestrial plants either.

My one question is, won't the terrestrials outgrow the space I have underneath my sump, and cause chaos?

For terrestrials, I have used Pothos, phillodendron, ivy, peace lilly, and angel wings. If you want them to start filtering right away, rinse the dirt off the roots, and put the roots and some of the stem in the water, but make sure the leaves stay dry.

If you're going to use CO2, get a pressurised system - you can piece them together from welding supply shops for around $150, but if you buy a complete setup at the LFS it'll run you between $200-$300. CO2 is only necessary for aquatic plants. And you could probably get away without it for Najas.

If you go with floating plants, you won't need a CO2 system.

The reason Excel is not a viable option is that you'll likely have to use 1/2 a bottle a week for your system (just the sump is 60gal, right?).

Yessir, the sump is 60 gallon.

I came up with a better plan last night though.

The design I came up with I used on a 33 gallon, and am going to put it on my 130 gallon, to put forth this theory of a "refugium" to see if it makes a heavy impact

If it is a must, I will run Co2, I just have no idea where to get the stuff lol.

Thanks all for you input, its helped me greatly.