looking for help with planted tank substrate decision

[Cgy_Betta_Guy]

Hi there... I am basically 3 days now into the hobby which is when I went out and bought my 31 gallon tank, just under a month if you count putting a couple bettas into their own little 3L tanks.

My intention is to start up a planted tank and I have been doing a bit of reading through various forums and wanted some opinions on some substrates and setup that would be appropriate for the tank. Here was my thought process which has ebbed and flowed as much as the water that will soon be in my tank (hopefully)..

My initial thinking was to get Fluorite Black for the entire tank but the cost and the quantity I would need is kinda preventing me from going this route. I then moved to thinking about mixing 50/50 Fluorite Black with regular black gravel either mixed in with the Fluorite or layered over top. Then I read some things about Fluorite possibly being a bit harsh for Corys which I am planning on getting. Sooo... I then moved to thinking about Fluorite Black Sand and mixing this 50/50 with some other black sand... then I thought... the black would be pretty harsh... maybe a mix of 50/50 Fluorite Black and Home Depot Play Sand would look better. I have since thought about just using the play sand. I just cant make up my mind....

Anyways, my questions are as follows:

1) what are your opinions / implications about a planted tank with sand? read that some plants will be limited as the sand compacts ( considering Malaysian Trumpet snails to possibly overcome that limitation). I will be doing mostly low light plants such as swords, vals, java ferns, anubias etc.. since I dont have the best lighting on the canopy from the kit. (2 x 20W T8 6700K Life Glo tubes)

2) with a completely planted sand (or gravel) tank, does one just gravel vacuum it to keep it clean or will the various wastes and garbage be absorbed by the plants and grabbed by the filtration? Anything I should be concerned about vacuuming sand? I imagine vacuuming a mature tank is gonna be quite a chore with all the plants everywhere.

3) Fluorite-- is it really that beneficial? I have heard some people say they have tried it with no discernable difference in growth between a normal gravel substrate and a regular gravel substrate where dosing with fertilizers is required and that big gains really only come from CO2. Also how much stuff is stirred up with it after its been in the tank for a period of time? Heard corys like to play in sand...

4) Aesthetically... How does Fluorite Black or Fluorite Black sand look in your tanks? Do you think mixing black sand with play sand would look good (whether it is either Fluorite or non Fluorite)? How about Fluorite Black and Fluorite Dark together? HD play sand?

5) Under gravel /substrate heating - anyone have opinions on this? Only reason I am thinking about this is that the tank is currently bare and it would be easy to put it in now if it was truly beneficial. I have read some articles about it simulating under ground currents that are beneficial but man are some of the articles yawners... I wanna know if it works in practice in the aquarium environ from someone who may have played with it.

Sorry for the short novel... I think this will help me get past the first hurdle of getting something into my tank... a bit boring looking at an empty tank with a blue back ground and a chunk of drift wood. If it helps I am planning (but could change) on stocking with school of Corys, a m/f pair of dwarf gouramis, a couple Lyretail Swords, maybe a tetra school, some cherry shrimp and malaysian trumpet snails and maybe something else that will eat algae. If I can find all of this of course.

Thanks for any input!

[geleen]

One option would be to go with a sand bottom and pot the plants.....it would solve some of your concerns rather easily.

I have used 1/3 plain potting soil with sand on top to fill, and swords and stem plants grow quite well.

Using plain play sand works very well with low light plants, you could add a root tab for the sword plant.

1 bag of fluorite sand mixed with play sand would only cost around $35-38

Vacuum the gravel or sand weekly this would eliminate any concerns about the sand packing too much......I have had no trouble with up to 4" of sand in some areas. Sand is easy to clean as the crud stay's on top.

In a 30 gallon you would be limited as to the kind of sword, as most can grow very large.

Anubias do well if they are on driftwood or a rock.

J.

Edited April 2, 2009 by geleen

[fishclubgirl]

I run a couple of planted tanks and am a fan of fluorite but not the cost. My preferred substate is a mix of equal parts sand, gravel, and fluorite. I do have 2 planted tanks that are a mix of gravel and fluorite that are doing well. I have used sand and fluorite but found that I was getting too much sand on my water changes. IMHO, that's the way to go but I'm sure that others have different opinions.

[jvision]

THere has been quite a bit of discussion about substrate and fertilizing, lately.

This thread may be of some help:

http://albertaaquatica.com/index.php?showtopic=23960

I like to Keep It Stupid Simple, so don't be allusioned by all the 'goodies' at the LFS

[werner]

1) what are your opinions / implications about a planted tank with sand?

I don't think you want anything with a particle size that's much less than 3mm (some people would still call this "sand"). You do want some of the waste and crud working it's way into the substrate to feed the plants.

2) with a completely planted sand (or gravel) tank, does one just gravel vacuum it to keep it clean or will the various wastes and garbage be absorbed by the plants and grabbed by the filtration?

Yes. You can gravel vac to remove large leaf litter, etc. With plain gravel/sand you will want some additional organics in the substrate- why not let it settle there naturally. And once you get a lot of plants, you can't really get a gravel vac into very many spots.

3) Fluorite-- is it really that beneficial? Also how much stuff is stirred up with it after its been in the tank for a period of time? Heard corys like to play in sand...

The good thing about Flourite is that it has a high CEC (cation exchange capacity- the ability to hold nutrients) from day 1. Inert gravel/sand has next to none- which is why people add laterite, soil, mulm from other tanks, etc. If you're really stirring up the bottom or pulling out very large plants, then yeah, you're going to get a lot of stuff in the water. But I wouldn't say it's any worse than a gravel tank.

I have regular Flourite and my corys seem have no problems with it. They can't shift it around much since it's a larger particle size, but they manage to get their little barbels into all the nooks and crannies. They do like it when I stir things up, though.

4) Aesthetically... How does Fluorite Black or Fluorite Black sand look in your tanks? Do you think mixing black sand with play sand would look good (whether it is either Fluorite or non Fluorite)? How about Fluorite Black and Fluorite Dark together? HD play sand?

Personally, I like the Dark- it still looks like "dirt" to me. The black is nice too. I think if you're going to do it, go with 100% Flourite of the same color. Then you don't have to worry later on when the different sized and colored particles start separating and settling out.

5) Under gravel /substrate heating - anyone have opinions on this?

I use a cable heater. I can't prove that it's beneficial, but I think it helps. They're quite a bit more affordable now than what they once were. If you get one, make sure your substrate is nice and deep so large swords and such won't get their roots wrapped around it too easily.

Hope that helps!

P.S.- Are you willing/able to change the blue background? Black looks much better for planted tanks, IMO.

Edited April 3, 2009 by werner

[Cgy_Betta_Guy]

Thanks everyone for your responses.

Definitely lots of reading involved with starting up a tank.

geleen, fishclubgirl:

Thanks for the options... something else to consider (like I am not having a hard enough time deciding...) .

jvision:

At this point I am starting to think easiest is better. Most likely I wont be mixing different substrates... probably going with the fluorite.

I have already read that thread and its provided me with some pretty useful info. Thanks!

werner:

Good to know that corys might not be bothered by the fluorite but I guess maybe its really dependent on the individual fish. Wont know till I get a nice little school of them to see.

I checked the prices of some of the substrate heating... its still about 100 bucks for each of the 2 systems I checked out(red sea and hydor)! If that is affordable I am wondering how much they cost when they first came out! Which one are you using? Chances are that I will defer getting one of these units but its not entirely outta the picture yet.

My background has both blue and black on either side so if I wanted to change it to black that wont be a problem. Totally depends on what color substrate I finally decide on. I have now seen a few pictures of the fluorite black in tank and its pretty nice looking but dark... I think a blue background might help to keep all the black from being too overwhelming.

[ÐÉÅÑ]

With that lighting it would be a low light tank. Most plants used in low lights dont even use a substrate, like hornwart, anubias, mosses and java fern. Imo with a low tech tank an expensive substrate isnt neccisary.

Im using 100% hd sand but the tank is rather new, i'll let you know how it goes.

[werner]

I checked the prices of some of the substrate heating... its still about 100 bucks for each of the 2 systems I checked out(red sea and hydor)! If that is affordable I am wondering how much they cost when they first came out! Which one are you using? Chances are that I will defer getting one of these units but its not entirely outta the picture yet.

I have the Hydor system and you don't actually need the thermostat unit with it (figured that out after I bought it.) So that saves you $50. You can always add one down the road if you want.

Once upon a time, the only substrate heaters out there were made/sold by Dupla (of The Optimum Aquarium fame.) They were many hundreds of dollars... if you could get one from Europe and make it work here. I eventually bought a non-thermostat cable heater maybe 8 or nine years ago when planted tank technology was just starting to become available here. I think it was about $200. It crapped out last year and when I set up my new tank, I got the Hydor one.

[byte]

I don't know how much it helps, but I put my tanks on a layer of reflective foil insulation that has a R-5 insulation value.

http://www.insul.net/prod_astrofoil_all.html

[chloeclose]

I've kept cories in an all Fluorite tank before and they did well. In fact, I'm planning to do it again.

[Cgy_Betta_Guy]

Dean:

yeah I figured that would be a low light tank.. I had thought I would be able to upgrade the bulbs or the canopy later on if needed. right now I have 2 x 20W 6700K bulbs in there. I am wondering if swapping one to a 20W 18000K would help with plant growth?

Werner:

I had a look at the hydor manual and it says not to plug directly into an electrical outlet. Probably just out to sell the thermostat unit?

byte:

Do you have that foil inside under the gravel or under your tank?

chloeclose:

good to get more confirmation that cories wont have issue with the fluorite. I think I am probably going with the black fluorite if I can manage to track down a store here that isnt sold out.

thanks all!

[fishclubgirl]

I think Big Al's had some on Saturday. You could call them and find out.

[Cgy_Betta_Guy]

I think Big Al's had some on Saturday. You could call them and find out.

I called and they said they had plenty. I specifically asked the gal if it was the gravel not the sand... reply was yes its the gravel and we have plenty... I drove across the city to find that no... it was the sand. GRRR... I asked one of the guys to check the back and he came back with one bag so it wasnt a completely wasted trip.

[werner]

Werner:

I had a look at the hydor manual and it says not to plug directly into an electrical outlet. Probably just out to sell the thermostat unit?

My manual says nothing about that. The box does say that, "in order to exploit Hydrokable features, we recommend its use connected to a Hydroset thermostat."

Everything else I have seen only recommends the thermostat. The plug on the cable is made for a regular outlet, which they wouldn't do if it needed a transformer, etc. I suspect it's indeed meant to sell more thermostats.

[catshanon]

Werner:

I had a look at the hydor manual and it says not to plug directly into an electrical outlet. Probably just out to sell the thermostat unit?

I had bought a heating cable when I was a noob and was all excited to start out with the most high tech gadgetry. I bought the cable and then went home and saw that you also had to buy the thermostat as the thermostat was strongly recommended . The thermostat was pricey, so I returned the cable itself. I am sure the cable will have beneficial effects as it simulates the undergravel current that brings nutrients to the roots. I think under gravel jets , as described here under gravel jets will also keep the substrate porous for gas exchange. Plus there's the added excitement of a DIY project.. :thumbs: