New CFIA Aquatic Import Regulations

[stratos]

Almost all fish I import come with pretty extensive paperwork already. Europe has required various import/export certificates for some time. A very expensive part of importing stingrays from the Netherlands to Canada is getting the EU health certs for the rays - certs Canada doesn't even ask for (but the Europeans insist you have anyway). In the UK, they force you to register the sale or movement of all Asian arowana within the country - even if it is a private sale between hobbyists. These new Canadian regulations do not strike me as much of an impediment for importing the fish I am interested in.

[RD.]

These new Canadian regulations do not strike me as much of an impediment for importing the fish I am interested in.

ditto

My interest is for the hobby as a whole, not just how this may or may not affect me personally.

Edited September 10, 2010 by RD.

[Evolution]

Basically, now we all have to pay and extra 10 cents for our zebra danios, thats and extra $1.20 if you buy them is schools of 12. And we now have to pay and extra 30 cents for our dwarf gouramis and an extra $3.00 for our discus. All because our Canadian government wants the thrid world facilities these fish are being shipped from inspected and certified by a veterinatian.

I would like someone to explain to me how forcing third world countries to provided certificates of health for their fish is a bad thing for the hobby?

Considering the transmission of crayfish plague and the devastation it has rot on Europe do you ever wonder why it has not affected Eastern Canada? What with the St Lawrence shipping lanes and all the feral crayfish that have been released there in the past 40 years. You'd think they'd have it by now.

Oh, and red tape is very very important, it prevents the importation of things being brought in on a whim. Without it this country would not be the greatest country on earth.

[RD.]

That's like asking why a condom with a large gaping hole in it, is a problem?

BTW - In North America most indigenous crayfish species are resistant to this disease, but can be asymptomatic carriers.

[Evolution]

This regulation is a new structure and will require time to build and perfect. The condom is an item that works and works well, but if it has a big gapping whole in it then you should stop reusing the same one or maybe you need to buy bigger ones.

Hense the need to not list such crayfish species at this time.

[Ishkabod]

Okay you both have completely valid points. BUT i have one question. WHY if they were serious or had any idea what they were doing did they not go for something more like what the EU has done? I don't know about you but unless they get into regulation of pet stores and wholesalers to be as sure as they can be that the fish aren't sick then the whole exercise is a waste.

You are right about the crappy red tape. Unless it goes somewhere completely different then the direction it's heading now it'll be useless.

for now this is what i see in the future :banned: :banned: :banned: :banned: :banned: :banned: :banned: :banned: :banned: :banned:

Thank you again Neil for the heads up.

L

[Evolution]

Wholesalers are inspected in Canada and stores will be in the future. Now, when a store imports fish, wholesaler or anyone else, the fish will require a health certificate from the place of origin. If something is going to be banned it is going to be banned because it is a threat to Canada and it should be banned. This regulatory structure is modeled from the one used to regulate the importation of plants and terrestrial animals and those regulations work. You can't just snap your fingers and have a system "presto" put in place! It takes years to build these things up. Inspectors need to learn the different species, they need to be able to open up any given box that says zebra danio on it and the inspector can look in the bag and say, "yup, that is Danio rerio!" But people would have them know the 2000 different ornamental species instantly!

What we are seeing here is a classic case of people crying wolf in an environment where there are no wolves.

P.s. Rome was not built in a day!

Edited September 10, 2010 by Evolution

[RD.]

Will,

Have you ever had to deal with the CFIA directly?

I have, many times, and for the most part it's typically been a huge cluster***k.

And while I agree that these types of regulations take time to iron out potential problems,

the CFIA has been working in the background on these new proposals since 2005.

Consultation with regulated parties on regulatory change has been ongoing since 2005 and will continue as formal regulatory processes proceed.

Again, I am not against the regulation of animals & animal products being imported into Canada, I'm actually all for it. But I am against sloppy regulation, which is exactly what this currently appears to be. It shouldn't take 5 days to figure out some of these potential problems, let alone 5 years.

I used the crayfish situation as an a example of how ludicrous some of this is.

The CFIA is actually not worried about the crayfish plague (A. astaci), their concern is that there may be a potential of a EU strain of A. astacei being imported via infected crays which our NA species may be susceptible to.(how ironic is that?)

If that's the case, then ALL crayfish being imported into Canada from facilities where EU crays are kept, or have been in the past, should be considered potential carriers of this potential EU strain, not just the species they have chosen for their special little list.

And of course all of that will depend on the the vet who checks all of these crays, and whether they follow the proper protocol required, beyond just gross oberservation, such as wet mounts, smears, cultures, etc. And then of course we have exporters/importers who apparetly don't know the difference between the species, and have Cherax Tenuimanus listed(which is not on the CFIA list), when they are actually Cherax quadricarinatus. (which are on the CFIA list)

These aren't make believe scenarios, this is exactly what is already taking place within the trade, and within our country. It's a bad thing, because both importers & consumers are being given what will turn out to be a false sense of security. These fish, crustaceans, etc are not going to be arriving from biosecure facilities, most are coming from intensive commercial facilities, where numerous pathogens can be present at any given time. Performing a random test on 1, 2, or even a handful of specimens, out of 10's of thousands per facility does not & will not remove the potential for many infected specimens to arrive on our soil.

As stated previously, without proper quarantine, and proper testing at this end, in many cases those certs won't amount to more than a bucket of warm spit.

With regards to wolves, and potential increased costs of tropical fish, tell that to the hobbyists in Australia, where their govt has perfected (in their minds) the biosecure import system.

http://www.daff.gov.au/aqis/import/general-info/qap/class7

More fun reading ....

http://www.daff.gov.au/ba/ira/current-animal/ornamental_finfish

If you think that red tape is very important, all I can say to that is be careful what you wish for.

It just might come true .....

[RD.]

Now, when a store imports fish, wholesaler or anyone else, the fish will require a health certificate from the place of origin.

Actually that's not at all true. The way the proposal from the CFIA currently stands the vast majority of the tropical fish imported into Canada won't require any form of health certificate. http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/anima/aqua/spliste.shtml

The vast majority of the species listed in that link are fish destined for human consumption, not for the aquarium trade.

IMO there is a clear conflict of interest between protecting human health (the CFIA's typical role), and truly protecting Canada from the introduction of aquatic animal disease with regards to the aquarium trade. As it currently stands, the latter seems to be of little interest to the CFIA.

Hopefully it stays that way.

[Evolution]

Now, when a store imports fish, wholesaler or anyone else, the fish will require a health certificate from the place of origin.

Actually that's not at all true.

Actually it is true, my mistake was to generalize. Eventually more and more fish will be added to the list, but the 12 ornamental fish on the list will require the health certificate.

I really think you are missing the broad scope of this. This is very important to the health and well being of Canadians and our wildlife. The reason all the ornamental carp were added is because they can pose a direct threat to our native fish population because these fish can, and in some places have, become feral in Canada. As for tropical fish, they do not pose a serious threat to our wild populations, such as they could, have and are in Australia, but they certainly do pose a threat to our aquaculture industry, labs and hobby. Do you have any idea how many diseased fish are transhipped into Calgary every week and require be hit with insane amounts of drugs to prevent the spread and wipeout of enormous fishrooms? When I first got my electric eel I put it in a swimming pool that never had a fish in it before and within two weeks it was completely covered in Oodinium.

This doesn't threaten the hobby at all, it will actually make it stronger and more exciting. The trade and breeding programs within the hobby is going to grow because of this and less diseased fish are going to be transhipped in.

We can talk in ten years about this, like you suggested, whoever is correct can pay for the others lunch.

[RD.]

FYI - I grew up in an area of Canada where feral carp/koi were running rampant before most members of this forum were even alive. The only reason that all of the various carp species, koi, and goldfish, are now on the CFIA's radar is due to the fairly recent (confirmed in ON in 2007) outbreak of KHV (koi herpes virus).

http://en.engormix.com/MA-aquaculture/news/mysterious-herpes-killing-carp-t13062/p0.htm

http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/en/Business/LetsFish/2ColumnSubPage/272813.html

Non native carp have been swimming in Canadian waters for the past 50+ years, with the most recent capture from just this year, being a Bighead (Asian) carp in the Great Lakes.

http://www.ec.gc.ca/eee-ias/default.asp?lang=En&n=8E8C2C22-1

In Canada, carp have been a direct threat to native fish for several decades.

I'm also well aware of the amount of pathogen infected fish that are imported & sold in the aquatic trade. You're not telling me anything that I'm not already well aware of, and have seen first hand for many years.

As stated repeatedly, I am not against the regulation of animals & animal products being imported into Canada.

I'm not sure how much clearer I can make this. My issue is not with proper regulations, but specifically with the government agency that is now overseeing this process. If you believe that the new CFIA regulations are going to cause any major reductions in the introduction of diseased fish into the aquatic industry, then you have far greater confidence in the CFIA than I do.

I take it from your lack of response to my previous question your personal dealings with the CFIA are non existent. I wish that I could say the same.

Cheers

[Ishkabod]

I'm not sure if you are aware of this or not but when i spoke to a BC importer of Japanese Koi she told me a bit about the QT procedure they have to go through. First the fish are QT'd in a secret location and monitored for i think it was 2 months and once they have been given a clean bill of health by an offical then and only then can they be sold. Personally I'd pay more money for any fish that is treated like that because it means i can be more careless when it comes to QTing fish in my own home saveing me money time and headaches.

Neil thank you for the heads up on the crazy agency that is now dealing with this. If it were another entity i might have hope it would go somewhere good with this.

As it stands the regulations have soo many holes it them that it may as well be swiss cheeze and these holes are more obvious than an elephant trying to pass itself off as a mouse. They need to regulate QT for sellers within canada. Not only will that help the aquarium trade but it would boost the hobby to make it more appealing to the masses especially if the stores could then sell with fish setups all the gooey fish media needed to kick start the cycle and prevent new tank syndrome which causes most people to drop the hobby. For me I'll pay a few dollars more and drive an extra 20 mins both ways just to be more confidant that the fish i bought is healthy.

If you want changes Mail your MP a letter. If more people became more vocal and less people got into government positions based soley on their party colours then this country wouldn't be going south like it is in more then one sense of the word.

I have read both your arguments and I'm sideing with neil on this one.

L

[Evolution]

Let me put it this way.

This is the program...

http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/anima/aqua/impe.shtml

Get with it, because it is here to stay and it is proven to work with terrestrial animals and plants and you have no choice.

And please do not mail your MP with such speculative petty issues, because they have more important things they need to focus on, like housing and feeding the hungry than worrying about the added 5 cents on every guppy imported into Canada.

And Neil I am glad it is difficult dealing with the CFIA, because that way not every Tom, Dick and Hairy can import what they want when they want.

I personally love this country and where it is heading, I think it gets better here every year.

Evolution doesn't evolve the smartest, fastest or the strongest, it evolves the ones that can adapt to change.

[skynoch]

Okay I'm way out of my league here and I didn't have time to read all the links, but from what I understand alot of fish allready have alot of diseases when imported that may never appear physically until stressed or something else happens to bring on the onset. So will the tests that they do detect these diseases and if they are detected is the whole group of fish sent to a better place in the sky? I would guess that once these fish are in the quarantine areas where they are first examined if they fail the tests they would be killed and not re-introduced back into the wild, which would meen they would have to go and collect a whole new batch of whatever was tested. To me we may be saving ourselves some problems with certain fish but causing other countries more problems than anything. I expect any of my fish that I bring in to have a problem and quarantine accordingly. We are never gonna rid ourselves of the people that think they are doing a good thing by releasing a foriegn fish into our waters but maybe we're better off spending the money instead of on inspections to education and licensing of the problem fish.

Again way out of my league so knock the hell out of that idea,lol.

[Evolution]

When we force guidelines upon other countries such as what is going to be happening with these new regulations, what happens is these countries begin to improve the way they catch, handle, house and ship their fish. These countries also want to become globalized, modernized and affluent and this is helping to educate them on the importance of proper procedures. The ornamental fish on the list are mostly farmed fish. Another thing this does is it helps to eliminate the underground fish trade into Canada. The Government of Canada doesn't want discus breeders (they are everywhere) or any other fish farmer who doesn't follow proper disease control procedures shipping fish into Canada.

Also, these regulations are nothing new, Canada is just catching up to the US and EU.

Edited September 11, 2010 by Evolution